The New Christians

Recently in Comment of the Day Category

Wednesday August 19, 2009

A Thoughtful, Reasonable, Pastoral Comment about Same Sex Sex

There have been some real gems among the hundreds and hundreds of comments left on this blog in the past couple weeks.  Among those that bear repeating is this one from Edward Green:

To begin to understand the Bible's views (and they are various) on sexuality you need to get into the culture.

Sex was something that came with marriage. For women between the ages of 14 and 18. For men probably a little later. Scripture supports what we see in society and studies of sexual dysfunction show, that human beings are designed to be sexually active from late teenage years onwards.

When I read the Song of Solomon I find an erotic poem describing many different diverse acts of love, most of which happen before the couple are married. Once you key into the imagery there is not much that is not covered. Love is awakened? Perhaps she fell pregnant. It is almost implicit. And so they marry.

Pre-marital sex in Scripture means pre-adult sex. It also means the risks of pregnancy outside of the core economic and family unit. The Gospels are clear that Mary & Joseph did not marry for love after all (although I am sure they grew to love each other) and they story demonstrates the stigma of pre-marital sex. But Joseph's response was one of grace (to put her away not shame her), and grace doubled (to marry Mary). And yes I do hold to the Creedal statements on the Virgin Birth. But is is the appearance of the situation that should guide our response.

So the 'No Sex Before Marriage' argument doesn't wash. The 'Sex is part of the journey of two people towards life long covenant loving commitment' argument does. Contraception offers us more sexual freedom, but not the freedom to be irresponsible, recreational or promiscuous. Remember plenty of STI's are passed on by skin contact, that is by 'fooling around'. The ideal is one intimate sexual partner for life.


Thursday March 12, 2009

Comment of the Day

Sara weighs in on Original Sin:

And now it's time for a woman's perspective on "original sin."

Eve, the woman, fell for the snake's deceit. Eve, the woman, was a deceived transgressor, not Adam (1 Timothy 2:14). Eve, the woman, was seduced by the snake and then tricked Adam into eating the forbidden fruit. Eve, the woman, is to blame for the fall into original sin resulting in the total depravity of all humankind. Eve, the woman, forced God to exile all of humankind from the Garden of Eden.

Eve, the woman, is blamed by many church fathers, including Tertullian:

"...walking about as Eve mourning and repentant, in order that by every garb of penitence she might the more fully expiate that which she derives from Eve, -- the ignominy, I mean, of the first sin, and the odium (attaching to her as the cause) of human perdition. "In pains and in anxieties dost thou bear (children), woman; and toward thine husband (is) thy inclination, and he lords it over thee." And do you not know that you are (each) an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil's gateway: you are the unsealer of that (forbidden) tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image in man. On account of your desert -- that is, death -- even the Son of God had to die."

Wednesday March 11, 2009

Categories: Comment of the Day, Funny

Comment of the Day

I'm with Larry:

Actually, the mere existence of soccer is proof of total depravity.


Tuesday March 10, 2009

Categories: Comment of the Day, music

Comment of the Day

Rick brashly flaunts my prohibition:

To prove total depravity, I only need to look at the following:

1. NFL officiating, especially when the Steelers involved in the Super Bowl.

2. Terrel Owens picking up a new contract.

3. The 14 wins the NCAA is trying to take from Saint Bobby Bowden.

4. The multiple Grammys for Coldplay and John Mayer.

5. Britney Spears selling out our local 20K venue when innovative music fests in Florida (Langeradoo)are cancelled.

How else can you explain this?

How can we explain these things unless there is total depravity, at least in the area of sports. Unless god created everything and walked away. I think I cannot believe in a sovereign sports God in light of this.

I am a Sports/Music Deist. Of course, the lack of World Series wins for the Cubbies still give me a small amount of faith in God.

Sorry- I saw your threat of banning as a challenge.

Monday March 9, 2009

Comment(s) of the Weekend

Paul asks,

Hey does Tony ever post replies to the comments. I'm a long time lurker here at his blog and I notice he doesn't really reply to criticism of his opinions here. What's up with that?

Cody replies,

Paul-

These are just some options for why Tony doesn't comment back:

1. Perhaps he does. When we post, we are asked for an e-mail address. Perhaps Tony perceives that some people like to leave comments in order to start a public row. Maybe Tony chooses not to acquiesce to their desire to start a fight in public, and instead addresses their criticisms through e-mail. That way, people cannot come by and pick fights for picking fights sake, because Tony does not allow that to happen.

2. Maybe Tony likes to merely observe conversations. Since he is the originator of the post, we already know where he stands. Chances are Tony is not going to change anyone's mind who disagrees with him, at least not in this kind of setting. So instead, Tony sits back and observes our conversations and interactions with each other unfold, and we get the benefit of thinking these things through and wrestling with the implications on our own end.

3. This goes along with number 1, but maybe Tony chooses not to engage with those who are attempting to be combative. I haven't "lurked" around here long enough to see whether he seems to engage more with those who present their differing opinions in a more respectful manner than he does with those who seem to want to correct him, because they have to be right and he has to be wrong.

4. Maybe he's busier than we think he is?

There could be lots of other reasons, I'm sure.


Thursday March 5, 2009

Categories: Bible, Comment of the Day

Comment of the Day 2

More on the Sermon on the Mount, now from Mark Van Steewyk:Hrmpfh. I could write volumes in response to the different assumptions and assertions already popping up here. But I'll try to keep it brief. :) First of all, the...

Thursday March 5, 2009

Categories: Bible, Comment of the Day

Comment of the Day

Angela, on the Sermon on the Mount and martial arts:People are always telling me that when Jesus said "turn the other cheek" he meant "within reason," that when he said to carry the pack an extra mile, he meant "if...

Monday March 2, 2009

Comment of the Weekend

stormtrooper #274.52 objects to Brian's apologia for Pelagius:wow. I can't express how strongly I disagree with Brian's support for Pelagius' teachings. I find such theology to be soul-crushing, gospel-destroying, and faith-squelching. In my eyes, it truly amount to no less...

Thursday February 26, 2009

Comment of the Day

Brian does the unthinkable and defends Pelagius (against Augustine)!  Watch out, Brian, the NeoReformed stormtroopers went after Scot McKnight last week, and they'll probably come after you here! Pelagius brought up good points that are often ignored. First, he argued...

Wednesday February 25, 2009

Comment of the Day

We've got a nice thread going on free will and determinism around these parts.  Albert the Abstainer chimes in:Real free will: An ability to choose alternatives such that the possibility of an alternative action is real and not the product...

Tuesday February 24, 2009

Categories: Comment of the Day

Comment of the Day

Yay!  Albert the Abstainer is back!Real free will is illusionary. Don't believe me, try controlling your thoughts or dreams. The state we occupy is continuously changing in response to being a physical part of a physical universe. Our complexity not...

Monday February 23, 2009

Comment of the Weekend

I'm glad to see that my weekend quote of Dante stirred up some commentary.  Here's one, from Ben, followed by a response from me. (My apologies for Ben's masculine language.)I'm not sure how to understand Dante's use of "free will"...

Friday February 20, 2009

Comment of the Day

Brian has a warning for Mark Driscoll and other expanding evangelical ministries:Thanks for this post. This is depressing news. I don't mean any disrespect to these folks personally. I know they can be very kind, good people in person. So...

Wednesday February 18, 2009

Comment of the Day

Under Original Sin: Paul, Romans 5, and the Heart of the Issue, Brian provides with a helpful primer to the various views of interpreting Romans:Romans is important to the conversation about the doctrine of "Original Sin" for several reasons. First,...

Tuesday February 17, 2009

Categories: Comment of the Day

Comment of the Day

Thanks, Brian, for this response to Mrs. Darwin Would Be Proud:Octavia Butler has written a couple of wonderful books called The Parable of the Sower and The Parable of the Talents. In these books she includes poetry about an emerging,...

Friday February 13, 2009

Categories: Comment of the Day

Comment of the Day

Thanks, Brian:The Quaker theologian Parker Palmer says it well: "Truth is an ongoing conversation about things that matter."...

Thursday February 12, 2009

Comment of the Day, Take Two

Brian gives some excellent context to the world the Jesus was born into, and unpacks the Hebrew background to the concept of sin:There is no such thing as original sin in the book of Genesis. Judaism has no such doctrine....

Thursday February 12, 2009

Comment of the Day

KE Alexander on Original Sin:The problem with a Reformation view of original sin is that it tends to free one from responsibility for one's actions. That is not to say that our human faculties and/or affections have not been corrupted...

Tuesday February 10, 2009

Comment of the Day

Dan H. brings up a point that raises a big question (which I've emboldened) in response to Original Sin: Jesus' Ambivalence:Hmm. I would agree that Jesus never articulates an Augustinian understanding of 'original sin'. But I would also agree with...

Wednesday February 4, 2009

Comment of the Day

Andrew weighs in on "Progressive" or "Liberal":Maybe I'm just anal retentive but I think that the term "progressive" is a lot like the term "evangelical." It's just an easy way for folks to compartmentalize others (and maybe even themselves) into...

Monday February 2, 2009

Comment of the Weekend

Scott M drops some historical and biblical context on Original Sin:For that matter, Ethan, I could have pointed to the very first controversy that resulted in the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. I didn't do so because the Scripture...

Friday January 30, 2009

Comment of the Day

Why does a close examination of the doctrine of Original Sin matter? Because it is the "foundation" upon which much other Western doctrine is based. Scott M, take it away: Hmmm. Part of the problem may be that we have...

Thursday January 29, 2009

Comment of the Day

Noah, a self-described conservative, makes a calm and helpful comment under Same Sex Marriage Blogalogue: Press Pause,To be really honest, the comment section makes me sad. It is sad to me that people become so ugly when discussions arise over...

Wednesday January 28, 2009

Comment of the Day

Scott M points out some of the most significant intellectual problems with the doctrine of Original Sin:There are many ways in which this peculiarly Western variation of Christian belief distorts the faith. I mentioned one, the fate of infants who...

Tuesday January 27, 2009

Comment of the Day

So many great comments under Original Sin: A Depraved Idea, so I'll just highlight Virgil's.  Do yourself a favor and go read the others.There is very little that is "traditional" about the doctrine of original sin, until we get to...

Friday January 23, 2009

Categories: Comment of the Day, GLBT

Comment of the Day

Mike Morrell got off his ROM long enough to serve up this beauty under Announcing Queermergent:Well, I'm coming in on this discussion late - which is probably merciful. I think that, before posting on such things, we need to do...

Wednesday January 21, 2009

Comment(s) of the Day

As usual, lots and lots of mean-spirited commentary around GLBT issues here yesterday, but a couple of poignant comments stuck out under yesterday's Comment of the Day and Sunday's Announcing Queermergent. First, Kristi:done talking? done listening? i don't understand what...

Tuesday January 20, 2009

Comment of the Day 2

Peter Rollins and Stephen Shields have begun a bit of a back-and-forth under the post, Ten Years of Emergent/ing.  Here's Pete's response to Stephen, and here's hoping they'll continue the conversation (here or elsewhere):Hey there Would love to chat, and...

Tuesday January 20, 2009

Categories: Comment of the Day, GLBT

Comment of the Day

Preson takes issue with my post, Announcing Queermergent, as did many others.  What's interesting is that I merely pointed out this new group, with no editorial comment.  Yet my even publicizing it raises the ire of many. I guess that...

Monday January 19, 2009

Categories: Church, Comment of the Day

Comment of the Weekend

Well, there's a lot to choose from this weekend.  Several of the Methodist ministers who were at the contentious conference last week weighed in on What Happened in Missouri. Of course, it's disheartening to read on Susan Cox-Johnson's blog that...

Friday January 16, 2009

Categories: Comment of the Day

Comment of the Day

Bob is not going to be happy, but I'm posting robroy's response to my Rick Warren vs. Gene Robinson, and I'm doing so because I think, regardless of robroy's rudeness, it shows a particular perspective on why Gene Robinson (and...

Thursday January 15, 2009

Comment of the Day

Dan dissents regarding the post, Is Mysticism Gnostic?:Tony writes: "In my Monday post, I mused that the "secret knowledge" vibe expounded by some conservative Christians opens them to the charge of gnosticism. Some commenters mentioned that the other primary characteristic...

Wednesday January 14, 2009

Comment of the Day

Darren King weighs in on the post, Are Conservatives the Real Gnostics?:Tony, I agree. And I've often thought about this in terms of how we handle parts of scripture - such as the epistles of Paul. Rather than seeing Paul...

Tuesday January 13, 2009

Comment of the Day

Eric Glover continues the discussion of the Trinity:First I just want to say that I'm not arguing for or against the traditional understanding of the trinity in this post, I just merely want to engage the applicability of the aforementioned...

Monday January 12, 2009

Comment of the Weekend

Wow.  There was a slew of great comments from which to choose this weekend.  The best comment string, methinks, is under The Orthodoxy of Down Syndrome.  But the top comment goes to Steve D., who commented under Is the Trinity...

Friday January 9, 2009

Comment(s) of the Day

Several readers, when considering the Trinity, Mormonism, and orthodoxy, are wondering about the authority of Nicaea.Master Doyle:The two arguments I've heard most often to explain why Mormons aren't Christian are 1) they believe in extra-Biblical scriptures, namely the Book of...

Thursday January 8, 2009

Comment of the Day

Seth R., a practicing Mormon, weighs in on the Trinity and, in particular, my chosen trinitarian formulation:Tony, it's interesting in the same article where you conclude that Mormons are not Christians, you admit that you yourself are a "Social Trinitarian"...

Wednesday January 7, 2009

Comment of the Day

A fine dissent from Mike to my still-debated post, How I Went from There to Here: Same Sex Marriage Blogalogue:I think the conclusion from this is that you have "caved to the mushy inclusivity of pluralized nothingness" from the simple...

Wednesday December 24, 2008

Comment of the Day

Panthera, Larry, Celsus, and others continue to have at on yesterday's COTD, but it's Christmas Eve, so I'm going to refrain from re-posting one of theirs here -- they're not particularly gentle.However, here's a comment by Panthera on yesterday's post...

Tuesday December 23, 2008

Comment of the Day

The Comment of the Weekend, continuing the conversation on homosexuality, has drawn a bit of response.  Larry and Panthera exchanged comments that hovered just on the border of civility and then, I'm afraid, crossed that border.  We join the conversation...

Monday December 22, 2008

Comment of the Weekend

Over the weekend, I wrote a post giving three options as to why the story of Rick Warren's inauguration prayer has hung on so long (and, as far as my blog reading this morning, it's not going away just yet). ...

Friday December 19, 2008

Categories: Comment of the Day, Funny

Comment of the Day

To my post, Penn Gillette Loves Him Some Gideons, PerpetualDreamer replies,Even though I'm no longer a Christian, I find the Gideon bibles very useful - they're free and very effective getting missionaries off my property when I threaten to burn...

Thursday December 18, 2008

Comment(s) of the Day

Well, color me astonished.  Mega-commenter A Walker shows us all that he's not just a one-trick (SSM) pony.  He's not only familiar with Walter Rauschenbush, but he favorably quotes the social gospeler in response to my Rick Warren post of...

Tuesday December 16, 2008

Comment of the Day

From Basil, responding to Quote of the Weekend:I appreciate the civil tenor of all of these comments. I am a gay man, who is exploring my own religious beliefs, via Quakerism, and enjoy my worship greatly. I am very interested...

Sunday December 14, 2008

Quote of the Weekend

To the post, The Newsweek Same Sex Marriage Kerfuffle, Dr. O'Hanlan writes, Galileo (science) was right and the Catholic Church was wrong and we finally had to admit it 500 years later. Science has some weighty evidence for us and...

Thursday December 11, 2008

Categories: Comment of the Day

Comment of the Day

Sam comments on my Rich Cizik post:I thank God for Rich Cizik's courage. He was just out here at Azusa Pacific University where I now work and spoke some good words. I am like him, for civil unions for homosexual...

Wednesday December 10, 2008

Categories: Comment of the Day

Comment of the Day

"Duh-sciple" has quickly become one of my favorite commenters.  under the post, Is Rick Warren a Centrist, s/he writes,Remember that when we draw the line between "us" and "them" between the "pure" and the "depraved" between the "saved" and the...

Tuesday December 9, 2008

Comment of the Day

Two in a row for Dr. Science!Wow, I just checked back to see if the old thread had died, and what do I find! Thank you, Tony. BTW, the pronoun used for me is "she", not "he"."A Walker" -- Who...

Sunday December 7, 2008

Comment of the Weekend

To my post regarding Zach Lind's support of SSM, over against the arguments Dan Kimball noted that it may lead to the legalization of polygamy, Dr. Science writes,Civil marriage is a legal contract between two persons. Same-sex marriage acknowledges that...

Thursday December 4, 2008

Comment of the Day

The conversation continues my most-read Beliefnet post to date: Same Sex Marriage Blogalogue: How I Went from There to Here.  Ben contributed this:Yes, The Holy Bible is very clear on a lot of things. Circumcision, for instance. And what about...

Wednesday December 3, 2008

Categories: Comment of the Day

Comment of the Day

There's a really fascinating string of comments under Tuesday's post, Are You an MIE (Multi-Issue Evangelical)? regarding abortion.  It's hard to pick just one comment, but RJohnson's stood out to me as particularly thoughtful:"A fetus should not legally be considered...

Tuesday December 2, 2008

Comment of the Day

Dr. Science weighs in on the question, Is There a Religious Left?As "Your name" demonstrates, the answer to Tony's question is "Yes".Back in November 2004, Jeff Sharlet confessed it quite clearly, talking about questions he and Peter Manseau were asked...

Sunday November 30, 2008

Comment of the Weekend

Several commenters have questioned my inclusion of the "B" in GLBTQ, suggesting that bisexual persons don't fit under the monogamy that I endorse.  But PSUdain clarifies on my behalf:There seems to be a running confusion here about the nature of...

Wednesday November 26, 2008

Comment of the Day

Rev Dave writes,"Keep rocking the quadrilateral" Ha! +1 tripp! As a transplanted Methodist, I had a similar thought (and we were just this week teaching the quad to our Confirmation class).Though I wasn't brought up in that tradition, it seems...

Tuesday November 25, 2008

Comment of the Day 2

I'm adding another one today since I found what BudCath had to say interesting:Thanks for your comments. I would love for America to be guided by golden rule, but it is not and never has been. Indians, slavery, jim crow,...

Tuesday November 25, 2008

Comment of the Day

Sean gets right to the point -- a point that Rod and I will explore much more in coming weeks.Nine biblical citations are customarily invoked as relating to homosexuality. Four (Deuteronomy 23:17, 1 Kings 14:24, I Kings 22:46 and II...

Tuesday November 25, 2008

Comment of the Day

I'm going to start a new feature here at The New Christians.  Every day -- well, almost every day -- I'll post what I consider to be a thoughtful comment that truly adds to the conversation, or a witty comment,...

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About The New Christians

Tony Jones is the author of many books, including The New Christians: Dispatches from the Emergent Frontier and The Sacred Way: Spiritual Practices for Everyday Life. He is a leader in the emergent church movement and a renowned expert on postmodern theology and the American church landscape.


Find out more about Tony, his books, and his speaking schedule at his website.

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