Virtual Talmud

Principle, not Expediency

Friday February 16, 2007

I appreciate Rabbi Grossman’s defense of the practice of taking multiple and potentially contradictory positions. Jewish tradition is based on the principle of eilu v’eilu--that conflicting positions each have standing and integrity in their own right, provided that the argument at hand is made for the sake of heaven. In fact, this is the core principle behind our endeavor here at Virtual Talmud.

So why does the Law Committee’s action leave me cold? Perhaps because I feel it was less a matter of principled disagreement than it was the refusal to take a stance on an important issue--one that has implications for an entire class of people and their legitimacy in a segment of the Jewish community. JTS Chancellor Eisen’s survey to find out the views of rabbis and laypeople across the Conservative movement on the subject of inclusivity simply reinforces the perception--rightly or wrongly--that this decision is about expediency, not principle. And when expediency is the basis of intolerance and exclusion, we all lose.
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Comments
Grethel Jane Rickman
February 22, 2007 5:13 AM
HASH(0x213dd6dc)

Celesteno, I shared what I did to inform you that I have access to a decent Jewish education through a well-educated Rabbi. I also wanted to inform others--not just you--that the Reform movement doesn't view the Torah as antiquaed. To say that I was "assuming" anything about "you" is also another straw man. Yes. A vast majority of Jews do have a poor Jewish education. That is an issue. I can't help but wonder if you, Celesteno, have a negative bias toward the "majority" because they are not as well educated. This is an issue that is not mine. However, I do encourage you to take sometime and do some self-examination. Can you step outside of your box for a few seconds and read what you said in regard to "most Reform" and the "majority of Jews"? When you are in another Jew's shoes how does that paragraph sound to you? How would you respond to the phrase, "I know what the Reform movement stands for (better than most who affiliate with the movement I might add)"? Would you take that as negative or as positive? Is it a "you" focused or "I" focused message? What about the audience? We all have biased views. A bias comes from many elements of our lives--culture is one example. The key is in recognizing our biases so as to interact better with other people inside and outside our community. I noticed that I had typed "my" instead of "by" in my previous post. I do appolgize about that. I sometimes make these errors in writing and typing--an issue that has developed in the past 2 years or so. My field of study is Early Childhood Education with Emphasis in Special Education. I am being trained to recognize the importance of self-examination before interacting with children, families, and community. Shalom!

celesteno
February 22, 2007 3:39 PM
HASH(0x213de7b4)

I don't understand the whole straw man business, You made a comment, I replied and now you are attempting to psychoanalyze me. I don't feel like I'm the one being condescending, I'm not a third grader please don't speak to me as such (and please stop putting words in my mouth). I don't consider myself superior to anyone, regardless of their lack of education. However that lack of education often affects religious debate because since one person has a lot more information than the other its not an equal conversation.I think it's sad that most Jews don't have a basic Jewish education and in real life actively work to correct that. The reform movement does in practice view Torah laws as antiquated (that's how they teach it both in Hebrew schools and in classes offered by their rabbis (as well as the way they present it on panels). For example, If I never hear one more Reform rabbi say that kashrut was an ancient health practice and therefore doesn't really need to be observed unless you think it will create some type of sensitivity I would be happy beyond belief. If you knew how much info I would have to correct with my bar mitzvah students that they learned in Hebrew school it would boggle your mind (and I'm not talking about R (or any other denom v. O perspective either) If you find otherwise mazel tov. AS for my statement about knowing more about the movement than those that affiliate with it--it wasn't meant to negative or positive, but a true statement about the Reform community (most people affiliate with it because of what they don't do rather agreeing with or even knowledge of their philosophy). Which by the way I was a part of in various parts of the country for years, so what you're taking as a bias is really personal experience. Sometimes the truth hurts, but it doesn't make it false. There are hard truths about the O community as well, they're just not relevant to the discussion at hand.

Grethel Jane Rickman
February 22, 2007 4:32 PM
HASH(0x213e0b7c)

Truth is a matter of perspective which is subject to one's viewpoint. The world is not black and white. I think biases are a very important aspect of this whole discussion. Researchers have discovered that people have unconcious biases and beliefs. http://www.projectimplicit.net/media.php Biases develop out of three causes: fear, misinformation, or ignorance. " Biases can be negative or positive. Sterotyping stems from biases. Both create warped views of other groups and/or cultures. I feel that every single one of us who has written about or responded to the discussion on homosexuality has either a negative or positive bias about GLBTs. Futhermore, we have biases {negative and positive} about different groups of Jews and non-Jews. Also,when people communicate, they present the message in a form that reflects their own cultural understanding. Those on the other end of the communication, decepher the message in a form that reflects their own cultural understanding. There are cultural differences within groups and outside of groups. Effective communication has an element of accepting diverse cultures in their own viewpoint and conditons--not an outside viewpoint and conditions. It is extremely important to self-examine and to educate one's self about life experiences, ethics, and behavior of diverse groups and cultures. This helps create a positive view of diverse groups and nonjudgmental attitiudes about diverse groups. Diversity can be within a group and outside a group. Shalom!

celesteno
February 22, 2007 5:30 PM
HASH(0x213e19fc)

HOw about I not use the word true, and use the word fact if it makes you feel better. Of course the world isn't black and white--I never said it was. If you want to continue to lecture me without knowing anything about me, fine. Recognize your own bias and unwillingness to understand that sometimes people present facts that you don't want to acknowledge, not everything people say that you disagree with is based on an unconscious bias (or is a direct reflection on or directed specifically toward you). How does your dissertation on diversity and bias disprove any of my points--which by the way are based on the actions and articles of people within the group I'm discussing? And just being I am about as diverse as you can be. I am also all about the gays (marched in the parades, wrote pro-gay legislation,etc) --however does halacha says gay behavior is ok, no.

Grethel Jane Rickman
February 22, 2007 7:41 PM
HASH(0x213e2f04)

The post I made was a general post that brings forth information to consider in regard to the dicussion presented by the orginal post by the rabbi. It was not directed at anyone. I suggest that everyone remain calm and try to refrain from any form of fallacy which includes ad hominem and straw man. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ Description of Straw Man: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html Shalom!

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