Rick Warren's beleifnet.com interview is a must read, both because of the wisdom it contains and a rather horrific analogy made by him in which he compares any position on abortion other than his own, to holocaust denial. I assume that this was more gross misstep than gross insensitivity, but it needs to be mentioned and it needs to never happen again. But before I detail the problem, let me assure you, that my critique is not born of any ill will toward Rick Warren. In fact, I hold him in the highest regard.
Reverend Warren's claim at the start of the Saddleback Forum that church and state ought be separate, but not faith and politics, is one with which I strongly agree and have written about elsewhere. Suffice it to say that I believe that the separation of church and state is one of the great ideas of the modern world. It attempted to end the thousands year old tradition, among all three Abrahamic faiths at least, of people using state power to kill other people in order to make God happy. But the idea that faith should be separated from politics is one of the worst expressions of "baby-out-with-the-bathwater" thinking that has come along in almost as many years. Instead of killing people for God, we tried to kill God for people, only that has worked so well either.
We have managed to kill as many people over the last two hundred years, without God in the mix, as we did in the thousands of years before. So maybe we need to try something else. Instead of killing off either God, or those who don't share our beliefs, perhaps we should reintegrate the two in a healthier way. That is what I find so useful about Rev. Warren's comment.
And while there are many specific policies about which he and I might disagree, Warren's commitment to nurturing civil discourse around the most divisive issues in our society, is a service to us all regardless of the faith we follow or the political agenda we might have. In fact, it's his desire to lead in this area that makes his comments particularly egregious.
Speaking with Dan Gilgoff, Reverend Warren commented:
If they (Evangelicals, among whom Warren counts himself) think that life begins at conception, then that means that there are 40 million Americans who are not here [because they were aborted] that could have voted. They would call that a holocaust, and for them it would like if I'm Jewish and a Holocaust denier is running for office. I don't care how right he is on everything else, it's a deal breaker for me. I'm not going to vote for a Holocaust denier....
WRONG, WRONG WRONG Reverend Warren! And here is why.
First, to suggest that the debate about when life begins is the same as a debate about whether or not 12 million human beings were murdered by the Nazis is just nuts. Not because one would be nuts to assume that life begins at conception though. It would be nuts because the question of when life begins is a real debate not only among people in America generally, but among Christians who share a commitment to scripture. Does Reverend Warren believe that there is room to debate the factuality of those 12 million dead? And if he doesn't believe that there is room for civil debate around when conception begins either, then perhaps the Saddleback Forum was the sham that many liberals have, in my opinion until now, unfairly branded it.
Does he believe that anyone who interprets scripture differently from him actually denies, not a doctrine of the faith, but a matter of historic fact? If that is the case, then he must also believe that those who attack and even murder doctors and nurses who perform abortions are in the right, much as I hope he would agree that the soldiers and partisans who fought the Nazis were morally justified in that fight. If that is not his position, and I do not think it is, then he must pick a better metaphor for those who do not share his views on abortion.
Finally, by assuming that only Jews would be offended by a Holocaust denier running for office, Reverend Warren suggests that the Holocaust is primarily a Jewish problem. And while there is plenty about which to object concerning the way that many Jews have tried to own the Holocaust as a uniquely Jewish event, suggesting that any person of conscience could tolerate a holocaust denier in public office insults us all.
Does one have to be African to be concerned about Rwanda or Darfur? While the primary target of Hitler's genocidal aspirations was certainly the Jewish people, no sane human can tolerate a telling of history in which that war is denied -- not if we hope to avoid a repetition of such events in the future.
So speaking of events to avoid in the future, how about putting comparisons between holocaust denials and competing views of when life begins, on the list?
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Author, radio and TV talk show host, and President of CLAL-The National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership, Brad Hirschfield is the author of 
I agree completely with Eastcoastlady. I also suspect that many of those who are so virulently anti-choice are more interested in controlling women than they are in "babies" and "families." I see few of them out there helping unwanted children who end up in the foster care system. (I use anti-choice here not as a euphamism but because few of us are actually pro-abortion; I would much rather see teens remain abstinent, and adults in appropriate relationships using reliable birth control until such time as they wish to have children.) I am sorry, but I place more value on the life, health and future of the woman than I do on an embryo that has existed less than 12 weeks.
If abortion is banned, many desperate women will die trying to end unwanted pregnancies. Few women who are raped would want to carry a resulting pregnancy to term and to expect her to would be to force her to go through the rape over and over again for nine months. Women are sometimes exploited in other ways as well, and occasionally, abortion is the only choice for the particular woman. Sometimes that "woman" is a young teenager who has been taken advantage of by a friend or even a family member. I find it interesting that women who have abortions are often called "irresponsible," or even "murderers." Remember, right from the beginning, there was also a man involved. I suggest he also bears culpability for the unwanted pregnancy. Unfortunatley, in the end, only the woman is forced to live with the consequences. Abortion is never "good" and it is not an experience I would want to have. But I know that sometimes, it is necessary
Janice, please read my posting again - my references were not meant to compare any as better or worse, my point was in regards to the woman's rights and if there is to be an argument about when a baby is alive is really kind of silly because as living cells it doesn't just come to life one day and then to further state there are several types of living cells within our bodies that we have the right to decide what happens with them... wouldn't it be ridiculous if our country had rights over our bodies to decide what we did with other living cells (like a cancer or a parasite) in our bodies... it's an extreme comparison but my point is the extreme arrogance of someone to say they have rights over my body... the mother's rights over-ride the rights of an unborn fetus.
IT IS CERTAINLY ABOVE MY PAY GRADE ALSO TO TELL YOU WHEN LIFE BEGINS. ARE WE CERTAIN EVEN WHEN LIFE ENDS WITH ALL OF THE TECHNOLOGY THAT WE HAVE. HOW CAN YOU BE PRO-LIFE WHEN YOU ADVOCATE KILLING ANYONE? IT IS ONE THING TO DEFEND YOURSELF. BUT WHEN YOUR ARE THE AGRESSOR, OR DO THINGS OUT OF VENGANCE - THAT IS WRONG. "VENGANCE IS MINE" SAYETH THE LORD. GOD BLESS ALL THAT ARE PRO-LIFE, BUT BE PRO-LIFE AFTER THE CHILD IS BORN. I DO NOT KNOW MANY WHO HAVE HAD ABORTIONS. BUT MAYBE I DO, AND THE WOMEN WOULD LIKE TO KEEP THEIR PERSONAL BUSINESS TO THEMSELVES. THIS IS ONLY HAS BEEN AN ISSUE FOR POOR WOMEN. THE WEALTHY AND POWERFUL DID IT IN THE PAST, AND CONTINUE TO DO IT BEHIND A CURTAIN OF SECRECY.
SARAH PALIN NEEDS TO REALIZE THAT 18,000,000 CRACKS IN THE CEILING WERE MADE MOSTLY BY WOMEN WHO DO NOT AGREE WITH "ANYONE" MAKING DECISIONS FOR THEM.
What is more precious than life ? Life is a gift from our G-D. The ability to reproduce after OUR KIND is a gift from our G-D.To be created in the IMAGE AND LIKENESS of our G-D ; this is HIS gift to us.
You and I must ask ourselves what we are doing with the wonderful gifts our G-D has given us . If you will follow the heart of G-D , then you will know what to do about abortion .
FIRSTCOASTLADY
WANTED TO JOT A NOTE ABOUT YOUR RESPONSE TO MY POST, YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF THE HUNDREDS OF WOMEN AND MEN I HAVE GRACIOUSLY BEEN ABLE TO SERVE FOLLOWING THE DECISION OF ENDING A LIFE JUST BEGUN..
YOU OBVIOUS MISUNDERSTOOD THE DISCUSSION OF DEEP CONCERN FOR SOCIETY AS A WHOLE AND OF COURSE I DID EXPLAIN THAT I HAVE NO GUILT DUE TO THE DELIEVERNCE OF HIM THAT CREATED ME AND MY CHILD.
YET AS DISCUSSED, I HAVE NEVER IN 10 COUNTRIES, OVER 25 YEARS MET A WOMEN WHO DID NOT REGRET THE DECISION OR THE AFFECT IT HAD ON HER IN THE FUTURE. I CARRY MUCH LOVE FOR ALL CREATIONS, AND REMEMBER I AM DEALLING WITH THOSE WHO HAVE ALREADY MADE THAT DECISION AND HAVE GREAT REGRET AT CHOICE, SOME WERE RAPED, SOME WERE MALESTED, SOME WHERE JUST MAKING A CHOICE, BUT STILL HAVEN'T FOUND ONE WHO DID NOT REGRET THE ACT OF MURDER. I PRAY YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST, IF SO REDEMPTION IS FOR EVERYONE AND JUDGEMENT IS THE LORDS NOT MINE OR YOURS, I JUST LOVE THEM AS BEST I CAN COMING FROM ONE WHO MADE THE "CHOICE" OR LIVED THE "FORCED".
GOD BLESS US ALL
JOYCE
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