The comments to yesterday’s post supporting President-elect Obama’s choice of Rev. Rick Warren to offer the inaugural invocation have been fascinating. Some go so far as to suggest that my position is a function of my being a Jew.
A commenter identified as Rob the Rev writes: “Gee Rabbi, would you be so happy about the choice of Warren if he had made anti-semetic remarks about Jewish people? Hmmmmmmmm…..?”
Aside from the smarmy tone which I could live without, and find a little, dare I say “un-Christian, from someone claiming to be a minister, it’s an interesting question. The fact is, Rick Warren has the same stance on Jews that he has about gay people i.e. we are living in sin, falling short of God’s will and cannot get into Heaven. Actually, Rev. Warren may not believe the later about Gays, but he certainly does about Jews. I was in the room with him when he said it!
So the short answer to your question Rob is, “yes”. But what’s more telling is that you equate hating Jews with disapproving of homosexuality. I accept that some Christians relate to my Jewishness as “missing the boat” on God’s word, just as they think that gay people have. I don’t agree with them, but I hardly think that they are motivated by the kind of enduring hatred which defines genuine anti-Semitism.
Like most people in our society, Rob confuses disagreement with hatred. They are simply not the same. And as wrong as I believe Rick Warren was in dealing with Proposition 8, assuming he was motivated by hatred is actually a hateful act – one, that no matter how much inclusivity it dresses itself up in, is as absolutist in its demands of the theological right as they are of the left. This brings me to another comment that demands attention.
The following was offered by an anonymous commenter: “I don’t understand your reasoning that this is good for Faith; to have a Bible literalist who disparages the GLBT, that I feel (ital. added) is an abuse of a huge part of God’s children is not a good way to present Faith before the world.”
What we feel is hardly exhaustive of what the Bible might mean. That’s precisely the objection that the commenter has towards the literalists he/she decries! And that’s precisely why they should not be excluded from having a place, an honored place, at the theological/political table. I know it’s hard, which is why every faith traditions must keep teaching it, but let’s try not to do to others what we feel they have done to us.
None of this however excuses “Ulysee” who describes gays upset by the Obama’s decision as “behaving like spoiled brats”.
For starters, Ulysee, the paternalistic name calling is, well, uncalled for. Secondly, it’s not only gay people who are upset by this decision. And when any of us assumes that to be the case, we only confirm people’s fears that gays really are a separable group that can be left out there on their own, that this is “just” a “gay thing”. That is neither fair nor accurate.
The concerns about Rick Warren offering the inaugural invocation are an American thing and we all have a right to an opinion. And you certainly don’t have to be gay to care about how social policy affects gay people! We are all in this together. This is a human thing about which good people can disagree. That, I think, is what Obama’s decision is all about.
Author, radio and TV talk show host, and President of CLAL-The National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership, Brad Hirschfield is the author of 
posted December 19, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Rabbi, with all due respect, I think you’re blurring the distinction between “disagreement” vs. “disrespect”. To put it in Jewish terms (which I find helpful as a practicing Jew myself), it’s the difference between saying, “I believe Jews are wrong about Jesus; he is the Savior” and saying, “Jews are like pedophiles and people who commit incest because of their sinful practice of Judaism. They they can and should cease being Jewish immediately.” Not kosher, Rabbi.
posted December 19, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Thank you, Marc.. I was planning to write a similar comment until I saw yours.
posted December 19, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Far better would have been for for Obama to make a real statement for change and eliminate the whole ooga-booga need for imaginary godly invocation and sanction. How about a truly secular inauguration? wouldn’t that be a great way to honor our Constitution?!
posted December 19, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Why not simply have the evangelicals and the religious right represented at the inauguration by a less incendiary individual, one not so recently connected to a hurtful event to the GLBT community?
It appears that those who quite largely helped get Obama elected, will be partially circumvented by some who glibly attemted to paint Obama as a radical, anti-moral, anti-American; one raging with liberal, immoral revolution. Not to mention questioning his Christian authenticity; and intimating that he is a masked, stealth, radical Muslim.
The problem here rests not in conservative religious views and right wing politics being aptly included and represented (as they should well be), it’s about just what individuals are chosen to do the representation.
There is an early symbolism at stake here.
Most assuredly all viewpoints should be heard and represented! But not just any voice of those viewpoints is appropriate to carry out the task.
posted December 19, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Barack just fooled most of the people.
posted December 19, 2008 at 5:48 pm
The Rabbi’s teaching confirms what I imagine is Obama’s thinking as he makes all the choices for his inauguration and administration. He is bringing many different and disparate voices to the table as it is only when all the voices sit down together and listen to one another, with respect, that real concensus can emerge. I applaud the initiative and the process, and I am still hopeful that the change for the better he promised will be achieved.
posted December 19, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Marc,
Evangelicals/fundamentalists/conservatives DO believe that “they (we) can and should cease being Jewish immediately.” That’s their raison d’etre. And, in the past, when they had the force of law on their side, they killed us for not accepting that invitation.
posted December 20, 2008 at 1:39 am
Rabbi, just an observation on evangelical pastors and their views on Jews. Usually they soften. They can’t get outside the box that somehow Jesus’ death atones for sin, but they can eventually imagine that exactly how G-d keeps the books is beyond human comprehension and maybe Jews (and Muslims and Buddhists and atheists and etc) find divine favor, too.
posted December 20, 2008 at 10:47 am
Rabbi Hirschfield,
That is pathetic.
I am sorry to read such thoughtless and cruel comments from you, that when Warren is ugly to homosexuals, and when he claims Jews sin for being Jewish, you call it a disagreement. Do you merely disagree with White Supremacists?
The politics of gender preference shows that there is Sex Preference Supremacy rampant in this country.
I will not white wash that, as you have.
Really, shame on you
Gail Hirschfield M.D.
posted December 20, 2008 at 11:59 am
This Beliefnet newbi made a comment on Rabbi Hirschfield’s 18 November 2008 commentary that seemed to have struck a nerve. I was pleasantly surprised this Saturday morning to find it to be part of a centerpiece of his 19 November commentary. I even had to look up the word “smarmy” and learn its definition. It’s a great word and applicable, Rabbi! I suppose I could have left off the “Gee,” and “Hmmmmmmm…?” but I liked the attention getting impact it had. Sorry, bout that.
Perhaps Warren’s attitudes toward GLBT folks and Jews are not hateful and merely disapproving as you say, however his attitudes gives permission to fanatics to be hateful toward and do hateful things to GLBT people just as the disapproving attitudes of Christians toward Jewish people in Europe has led fanatics to do the same toward Jewish people down through history. Things like taking away their civil-rights, forcing them to comply with custom, persecuting them and murdering them.
Rabbi, would you have thought of Warren’s invitation to lead in prayer at the inauguration to be appropriate if he had said that he believed that black people should be segregated by-law from whites in separate but equal accommodations and that whites and other races should be outlawed from intermarrying? Would have President-elect Obama even have invited him if he had said that?
BTW, I am a real Reverend, ordained in 1980 in the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod but invited to resign from my last of three congregations that I pastored, but am surprisingly still on the roster as “emeritus,” because I dared to challenge it to do an objective bible study about homosexuality using the latest in biblical scholarship because the bible texts used by the LCMS to condemn, persecute and ostracize GLBT folks, like me, from church and society are mistranslated, misinterpreted and misapplied.
Now I must get back to preparing the sermon that I will be giving to the GLBT congregation tomorrow morning that I am the interim pastor of.
For all GLBT folks and their straight allies spiritual resources can be found at http://www.soulforce.org. Soulforce, founded by the Rev. Dr. Mel White ,is a GLBT organization based on the non-violent civil-disobedience philosophy and is working for the full justice and equality of GLBT folks in church and society.
posted December 21, 2008 at 7:45 am
I want to defend Rabbi Hirschfield’s post on Obama and Rick Warren since he is supporting dialogue, knowing that it is not always easy for a Jewish rabbi to celebrate in public the decision of a Christian President of the US, Obama, to choose one of the most famous and influential Christian pastors of our time, Rick Warren, for the inaugural invocation, by calling it as good for faith.
I don’t think that Rick Warren supports hatred and discrimination against gay people. Rick Warren simply thinks that marriage should be defined between a man and woman. That is what Obama believes, too. This is what I believe in as well. Now because I have this definition, it does not mean that I hate or disriminate against gay people. By the way, the tolerance and patience that those who define marriage as being between a man and woman have towards gay people can sometimes be bigger than the tolerance and patience that gay people have towards the previously mentioned group. We have extremists on both sides, but the tactics are the same. Now, I don’t know much about what pastor Rick Warren said specifically about Jewish people. But probably he spoke about humanity as a whole when talking about falling short, which happens to include all of us, and yes, including me. I don’t think pastor Rick Warren specifically addressed this against any particular race or cultural group excusively, but rather spoke about all us, including himself. And when we fall short, we are in need of grace, which also includes all of us once again, including me. In Christianity we believe that this grace is given as a gift by God to all humanity through the redeeming and atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
By the way, Jesus was Jewish and the Gentiles killed Jesus. There is no reason for anti-Semitism for Christians whatsoever. I say this as a Christian.
Thanks.
Eric
posted December 21, 2008 at 8:49 am
And for everyone’s ease who voted for Obama, well I hate to be the one to bust your bubble he is for (civil union), by the way if you are a Christian and you agree with this you’re as guilty as Obama. Also Obama is for abortion and “partial birth” abortion, he voted for this while in the Senate. He is “Pro-Choice” not “Pro-Life,” why do you think the (GBLT’S) are upset? It’s because he’s throwing you people a “boom-a-rang” the (“GBLT’S) supported him for this reason or did you go get snacks during this part? Obama has deceived you and America fell for it, and Rick Warren helped him. Israel cried for a “man king” instead of crying out to “God” to be their King” and they received Saul. Well the same scenario here, only here we had three choices,”God” and two men, America got who they wanted now face the consequences. In other words America didn’t seek God for guidance to choose between the two men, they chose their conscience. “Merry CHRISTmas”
posted December 21, 2008 at 10:43 am
Eric, you are definitely a cheerleader for Warren. Are you one of the sheeple of his flock? So fame, popularity and influence is what makes a preacher worthy of an invitation to pray at the inaugural. Jesus failed at all three in his day and if he came back today, proclaiming his true message of Good News for the least, the lost, the poor, the marginalized, and the rejected, he probably wouldn’t be any more popular than he was then It would be all those “good fundimentalist Christians” who would be yelling, “Crucify him, crucify him.” The false Jesus that fundamentalist-evangelical Christians sets forth today doesn’t begin to resembles the true Jesus of 2000 years ago.
You say that, “I don’t think that Rick Warren supports hatred and discrimination against gay people,” but only thinks that marriage should be defined between a man and a women. By his anti-GLBT preaching and teaching he certainly gives permission, encouragement and support to others to hate and discriminate when he teaches that GLBT love and commitment to their same sex partners is the equivilent of pedophilia and incest. Do you know that hate crimes against GLBT people are on the rise? Do you remember Matthew Shepherd? Also his position against GLBT people encourages people like you to support the denial of the protection of job, housing and medical discrimination to GLBT folks. Do you know that he has a “ministry” in his church to “cure” homosexuality, which the American Psychological Society and the American Psychiatric Soceity says is a bogus “therapy” and condemns as harmful to GLBT folks, who out of guilt and self-loathing, submit to Both these societies state that homosexuality is normal for those with that sexual orientation and that it is a prejudice and persecution society that causes emotional and psycholocial problems for GLBT people.
Oh, but Warren protests that he “loves” GLBT people. He even offered them “water and donuts” when a number of SOULFORCE GLBT Christians and their straight allies came to his church to protest his anti-GLBT preaching and teaching. How generous.
Eric, you made a great attempt at spin what Rabbi Hirschfield said but you don’t win a banana. You wrote,“Now, I don’t know much about what pastor Rick Warren said specifically about Jewish people. But probably he spoke about humanity as a whole when talking about falling short, which happens to include all of us, and yes, including me. I don’t think pastor Rick Warren specifically addressed this against any particular race or cultural group excusively, but rather spoke about all us, including himself.” I have to wonder how carefully you read his commentary. He wrote: “The fact is, Rick Warren has the same stance on Jews that he has about gay people i.e. we are living in sin, falling short of God’s will and cannot get into Heaven. Actually, Rev. Warren may not believe the later about Gays, but he certainly does about Jews. I was in the room with him when he said it!”
posted December 21, 2008 at 11:38 am
There are two glaring concepts Warren and others like him fail to consider…at least two.
One is that those who insist that their way of having sex is superior are akin to White Supremacists saying their race is superior. Yes, we are talking of Sex Preference Supremacy—which leads directly to discrimination or even more heinous acts against Gays…have you heard of any?
The second is that the word marriage is used by the state, but its definition implies an entanglement of the state with certain religions, if the state prohibits marriage based upon the definition provided by religious organizations. I see that as unConstitutional—a failure to provide relief for Gays from the oppressive and inhumane cruelty of the imposition of religious views.
Now Rabbi Hirschfield endorses the choice of Warren, a Sex Pref Supremacist, to give the inaugural invocation, a man who stands for keeping two people who love each other apart in the eyes of the state.
I think that is both sad and deplorable.
Gail Hirschfield M.D.
posted December 21, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Shelton,
I voted for Obama.
And I am thankful he won. Very thankful.
Because Bush and his evangelicals got pushed out of government and America is now safe for the rest of us.
Frankly, I would never vote for a conservative Xian / evangelical again if my life depended on it. I don’t feel comfortable with idolaters.
posted December 22, 2008 at 9:42 am
Scott,
Well, how people vote is not my concern, it’s yours and God’s, but be certain that if you vote for someone who is for civil union, same sex marriage, and abortion (planned parenthood, partial birth abortion) you and who ever else voted for these people are as guilty as they are. (2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds). KJV, Now, if you are not a Christian then why would you respond? And by the way “Bush can not run again” Duh! he has already served two terms, where you been. He didn’t get pushed out. “presidential terms are 4 yrs. with a possible 2nd term if voted back in, another 4yrs.
posted December 22, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Now, if you are not a Christian then why would you respond?
Uh, because this is a blog written by a rabbi and I’m a Jew.
Why did you respond?
but be certain that if you vote for someone who is for civil union, same sex marriage, and abortion (planned parenthood, partial birth abortion) you and who ever else voted for these people are as guilty as they
None of the above is viewed as sin in my religion. I support same-sex marriage whole-heartedly (civil unions are a cop out) and the right of a woman to choose. No one supports “partial birth abortion”. It’s just a straw man for the religious right.
And by the way “Bush can not run again” Duh.
I never said he could run again. Duh back. Work on your reading comprehension skills.
And don’t quote the “new” testament to Jews – we really don’t give a damn what it has to say about anything.
posted November 24, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Rabbi, you are being deceitful. To make Warren’s stance on gays the anti-Jewish equivalent, he would have to say Jews are going to hell for their ethnicity–something they have no choice in. He says anyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus’ divinity is going to hell. That includes people who believe in Judaism and Islam and Hinduism. Some Jews believe in Jesus, and Warren believes they will go to heaven.
If Warren said ethnic Jews are going to hell, or that members of Judaism should be second-class citizens who shouldn’t have the right to get married, you would most likely oppose Obama’s choice of this reverent to pray at the invocation.