Please, please speak nicely about people who are trying to good things.
Dont trust the misquoting post!

As a Jewish man from a very red state, I’ve been acquainted with firearms since I was a kid–and Rabbi Hirschfield is quite correct, it does take more than a few hours at a gun range to learn gun safety; so why not have gun safety classes? I’m not calling for any of us to form another Irgun, but I’ve been assaulted by Anti-Semites, and self-defense is an important issue in the community. Jewish people maybe safe in NY, but in other parts of the country it may not be so. All I am saying is, guns are just another tool; when they are used properly they are quite safe.

I hope a truck or motorcycle doesn’t backfire on these itchy trigger fingers. It would be far better to lobby the Police Commissioner for heightened security, and even to supplement with paid professionals, especially members of the community who may have served in the IDF. The threat during the Holy Days is real.
Certainly there is great support here in the Christian Community for however much police protection is needed. Ray Kelly should act immediately and decisively before the Holy Days are marred by the accidental injury or, God forbid, deaths of worshippers.

Zev-
I really tried to focus on the fact that they are, as you say, trying to do a good thing. But it’s also a dangerous and misguided thing and that demands attention to. Good kavannah does not assure a good outcome, don’t you agree? In the spirit of Elul though, I apologize if any feelings were hurt by my comments.

I am a Jew and a professional defensive firearms instructor. Anyone who thinks the police can protect them from terrorist attack either isn’t aware of the facts or isn’t thinking. Here’s a real world example of how it really works:
Ten years ago, a Jewish community center in my area was attacked by a lone domestic terrorist. An alert receptionist sensed trouble and called 911 as soon as she saw him. A police car happened to be in the neighborhood and arrived on the scene within one minute of being dispatched. They were too late. The terrorist had already shot up the place and escaped.
It simply isn’t feasible to post even one police officer, let alone a squad trained to take out terrorists, in every Jewish facility, 24 hours a day, every day. When the used food hits the fan, you are on your own. The police can’t get there in time to save you. (“When seconds count, the police are minutes away,” is the saying among professionals.)
I’m not familiar with the specifics of Rabbi Moscowitz’s training program, so won’t comment on it except to say that 100 hours is more training than many police officers receive in the subject. Basic firearms safety can be taught in an hour or so. 100 hours (that’s the equivalent of eight hours a day for two and a half weeks) is more than enough to learn basic tactical procedures.
I applaud Rabbi Moscowitz’s attitude and his students’. They have examined the facts, thought about them clearly and are doing what needs to be done. I wish more people in my end of the world would follow their example.

In 2003, a friend, a Russian Jewish emigre invited another colleague, a Sephardic Sabra, and I (I’m very secular) to Rosh Hoshanah, Service in 2003. This was Seattle. My Russian colleague and I had just returned from a week business visit to Moskva.
As is too often the case–our best plans went awry. Our Russian friend did not appear. My Sabra friend and I met to walk into a new congregation. We were timely, we took our seats @ the back, were quiet, observant. Just before the close of the service, my Sabra friend tapped me on the shoulder and told me we had to leave–he’d been asked to leave. I did go downstairs for a “pit stop” and was followed and closely watched by a gentleman who was openly hostile. Isaid nothing. On the way out, however we were warmly greeted by a gracious large man who invited us back– “go figure”. My friend and went to lunch, he was furious partially because he believed he’d been seen as an Arab. I was puzzled; but felt that attendance as strangers was the issue.
Later, I telephoned the Congregation’s Rabbi, I apologized and had a brief discussion. I received an apology in return, seems the “Master at Arms” had been unduly zealous.
Three months later, I’d been sent to Moskva on business. For Channukah, I did locate the one small synagogue via my concierge. Traffic was impossible as always, I was late, there was a metal detector to pass through. The “Red Army Officer” with AK-47 in hand sneered and made several obviously Anti-Semitic comments. I attnded and departed @ the close, @ the metal detector, I did meet a cheerful young man, shared a Shalom.
That was 2003. Circa three years later a crazed Muslim killed one staff member @ the Seattle Jewish Community Center and wounded five others. A 911 call from one victim brought Seattle police who resolved the hostage situation and took the gunman into custody.
We live in a challenging time, I own firearms, support the 2nd Amendment, yet I know of no reason that the US allows madmen to openly carry weapons. I’ve lived in Switzerland where every man owns his service rifle, he’s trained yearly. On the other hand, the police carry no weapons, and the violent crime rate is almost non-existent. Swiss people party to all hours and feel completely safe walking their streets. I’ve seen the same in Canada. Yes, Russia is different, they’ve seen too many James Bond movies.
When/Given I attend another service, here in the US, I will give the Rabbi the respect of calling ahead. When i was a child I fancied myself as a follower of Gideon and ate standing. As a senior citizen, Chuck Norris’ perversion of G-D’s Love and Law saddens me.

Now there is another Zev posting messages on here? This could get confusing!

Rabbi Brad,
Your descriptive of “…a bunch of well-intention knuckle heads… doing ‘anti-terrorist training’ and preparing to bring weapons to synagogue to deal with the possible threat of terrorism…”, is at best disingenuous and at worst displays amnesia about our peoples’ history. Some 70 or 80 years ago, in a supposedly civilized European nation, our people were vilified and slaughtered by their neighbors, enabled in part by their being disarmed by their government.
Dov,
For a person who supposedly supports the U S Bill of Rights, you sent a conflicting message when you posted “…I know of no reason that the US allows madmen to openly carry weapons.” Evidently your are confused. “Madmen” are legally not permitted to own firearms according to the many Federal Firearm regulations that exist.
Liars and criminals on the other hand, often disobey the law. This is true with respect to weapons, driving, finance and myriad other aspects of human endeavor. Firearm crimes often receive sensational headlines from the media. Keep in mind a person is just as dead if killed by an inattentive or drunken driver, a knife wielder, an arsonist or a shooter.
——————————————————————-
I applaud the efforts of these learned men to defend themselves and the members of their congregation. They learned the lesson of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs in December, 2007. I totally agree that these measures should not be needed. However, to ignore the realities of today’s world is to allow oneself to be led slaughter without a fuss.

Al,
With all due respect, I can’t be both “disingenuous” and suffering from “amnesia” at the same time, but you are so deeply angry that despite your intelligence, you don’t see that. Why not try offering your critiques without the anger? You would be better heard and also honor the teaching of Pirke Avot which advises us to be dan l’lak zkhut i.e. give each other the benefit of the doubt.
I would also advise you and anyone else who casually compares pre-war Europe to contemporary America, to be a bit more cautious and a little more respectful of this country and our experience as Jews living here. But i do appreciate that like the guys about whom I wrote, you are genuinely scared. So mostly what I wish you, is greater confidence and joy, especially as we approach Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.
Blessing you with a sweet, happy and healthy year!

I completely agree with JerryH and Al Eastman. I live in Colorado Springs, and if it weren’t for the woman security guard who took down the gunman (who by the way was on a murdering rampage because he was ticked off at the church) who murdered two young girls in the church parking lot, there would have been more dead people.
I took a 24hr basic hand gun course which is considered one of the finest in Southern Colorado. It is run by a nationally respected and called-upon forensics expert. One of the instructors is a member of the Colorado Springs Police Department. He informed us that the average time it takes for police in Colorado Springs to respond to an EMERGENCY is 30 minutes! An awful lot of Jews can be killed in a congregation in 30 minutes! And during prayer during the holidays, when our concentration is on our sins and not on saving our butts, it is simply wise to have people in the synagogues to watch out for our safety. If the group led by Rabbi Gary Moscowitz has been given 100 hours of training, that is definitely NOT “a bunch of well-intention knuckle heads.” That is about 9 times the training required by the NRA to qualify for a concealed carry permit. The 24hr course I took is about 3 times the required training. It would seem that Rabbi Moscowitz is seriously training the people who will be on guard to ensure they are not only good with aim and safety, but NOT trigger happy.
It is a sad commentary that we need to have this level of protection, especially at the high holy days. But too many times we Jews have been simply dumb in believing someone else will be there for us, and it has led to compacency and mass death. Thank you Rabbi Moscowitz for your efforts to protect us. And Rabbi Brad, I would recommend that you read another Rabbi’s essay on the need for Jews to be armed by Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzadok: http://koshertorah.com/PDF/Haredi%20Neighbor.pdf.
We can no longer hide our heads in the sand and expect everything to be okay. The world is at war and we Jews are again one of the primary targets. We need to be vigilant so we don’t end up like we did in WWII. The world has gone crazy and anti-semitism is on the rise. Rabbis like Moscowitz are on the correct path. He’s doing it correctly by giving good training.
Have most blessed holidays and be safe.

Shalom….

I do not think it is practical to ensure someone’s security by making another people insecure. It may work for a limited time but history teaches us it does not last long.
Maybe Rabbi Gary Moscowitz needed something to do or make a wave. People are willing to do a lot of crazy things for attention.
If other people start following this Rabbi and start carrying weapon, we are not going to leave any place “Holy” neither it will be secure. The only lasting way to ensure securing is to engage with people and make them partner in peace.
Shalom.

If good men stand by and do nothing evil will flourish, I see nothing wrong
with what is being done In the old testament the Jewish temple in Jerusalem
had its own guards, what is different here? As a Christian I applaud the Rabbi
and his intent to protect his people. Virgina has stripped me of my right to defend my self when attending church it is illegal to carry a licensed concealed
handgun during church services, the state has made us second class citizens who
are open to attack by any nut or terrorist who wishes to take peoples lives.
Those who foolishly depend on the police to protect them should realize that the
police come after the crime is committed investigate and hopefully apprehend.
There is nothing in the Constitution that says the police must protect you, The
Constitution provides you with the means to protect yourself by way of the 2nd Amendment.

Do you make your own Kool-Aid or just drink it? Police shoot 5 times more innocent persons than do civilian permit holders. A bullet travels much faster than a squad car. You even mention the history of what has happened to Jews in the past, so what is your problem. The police usually get there just in time to chalk the bodies.
Retired LEO

Hirshfield you are nothing but a dhimmi stooge and a useful idiot for libtards. If something goes down at your Shul you are going wish those “knuckleheads” were there to save your Jewish touchas.

hirschfield, you are drek. it is your brand of reasoning that conditioned 6 million of our people to walk into the gas chambers. go phuck yourself and leave my people alone,