Are You Good Without God?

To answer the "Good without God" question you need to define good and possibly God. A religious person and an atheist would likely define then differently.

I would define a good person purely in terms of observable behavior. Basically a good person pursues their self interest without harming others, and shows some degree of self-sacrifice to aid others in need. I think it is certainly possible to be good without God in this sense. A religious person might ask what is the atheists' motivation to be good. I would simply say that humans are mutually dependant upon each other and evolved instincts to cooperate in this manner. We also evolved instincts to be jerks to one another too, so conversely people can be evil without God as well.

The area that is challenging for the non-religious is dealing with the inevitable losses and disappointments that occur in life. Basically without God you view suffering as basically meaningless. So being good without God in this sense requires some degree of good luck coupled with resiliency when the s hits the fan.

"[W]ithout being grounded in some kind of faith in some kind of being greater than themselves" is another wishy-washy phrase that only remains coherent for an audience of supernatural believers. As with scriptures, it can mean so many different things, that it doesn't mean much at all. But to provide some discussion from an atheist perspective, is our shared humanity some kind of being?

Why is it clear to you the first answer is no?

Of course people can be happy without supernatural belief. How could you possibly argue otherwise? Google "Unitarian gratitude" for plenty of examples of natural-based gratitude.

"I think the gratitude part is more connected to my being happy than the being to whom it is directed." Amen, Rabbi. In fact, how does a supernatural being have anything to do with gratitude directed at another person? Isn't giving and receiving gratitude between people strictly secular?

The comments preceding mine are fascinating, and all over the board. Especially remarkable to me was the one saying that serving God or being good because God has directed us to be good is, in fact, selfish! My God (the one I know and understand, the one revealed in the Hebrew bible) is not asking me to do these things for a personal reward, but simply because they are right.

I will not comment on whether one needs God in order to be happy. But I'd like to comment on whether one needs God in order to be good. My answer is a very clear Yes and No. No... because I know many truly good people (using your definition, Rabbi) who practice no religion and acknowledge no God. But my answer is Yes... because those atheists or agnostics who are truly good received their definition of goodness and their resolve to be good and do good from God, even though they do not acknowledge God. The concept of good (along with the concept of evil) is not man-made, but God-made. Atheists may not acknowledge, or even be aware of, the source of goodness, but it is nevertheless the source of goodness. They have it indirectly, perhaps through their parents. I am blessed to have it indirectly - and directly.

Ray, I believe that God has defined good and has commanded us to choose good, to be good, and to do good. If good does not comes from God, then it must come from man, which is much scarier to me than any passage found in the bible. If man defines good, then everything is relative and there is no true good. Under such a notion, Hitler could define good, and Pol Pot, and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

I don't necessarily believe that God is infallible. The ancients argued with God, and sometimes they won! Further, not every order given by God pertains to good and evil. I don't know the context of the passage above (and before anyone else says it, yes I'm too lazy to look it up), so I cannot comment on it. Obviously I don't agree with it.

I'm sure this answer will not satisfy you, as it appears you are focused on "the ignorance and brutality" of what you believe is a "bronze-age screed." Now I have a question for you: Why do you read Rabbi Brad's daily postings? He believes in God and torah and you do not... so why bother spending time here?

Actually, Ray, I agreed (in my first posting above) with your theory that people can be good without believing in God (and similarly, that many who profess belief in God are not, in fact, good). That's why I gave a "Yes and No" answer to Rabbi's question. I know many atheists and agnostics who are good. They learned it somewhere. My point is that, if you trace the learning back, you eventually come to a person who got the notion of good and evil from God.

I have personally submitted a response to this ad to more than fifty of the members of the Big Apple CoR. It can be viewed online at my website: http://increasinglearning.com/Documents/There%20Is%20None%20Good%20but%20God.pdf

"Can be people be good without God?" What is "god", or rather, what is "god" to who? And then, what is "good"?

"First, can people be good, in the moral and ethical sense, without being grounded in some kind of faith in some kind of being greater than themselves?" Of course they can... why not? People who are very active in their churches/religions, people who are members of their religion's hierarchy, and people who have put themselves in positions of some faith-based group leadership have acted very badly.

"Second, can people be truly happy, as in "I'm good with that", without believing in something they call God?" Absolutely!! Just look at all the people expecting "god" to make their life better, make them rich, physically fit, sexually desirable, happily married, professionally successful, etc etc; and at the same time take no personal responsibility. These people are miserable and angry, and though they may attend services every week and say all the appropriate things they are resentful of others who have what these people covet.

I think the answer is Yes, however, the reality of the matter is is that without a belief in G-d it is easier to go down the wrong path towards selfishness and destructive behavior. If you don't believe in G-d, I think that it's easier to think, well who cares if I do this behavior, or say this thing that hurts another person if I don't experience personal consequences? What's to stop me? Whereas a person of faith would be fearful of G-d, so even if they don't experience personal consequences, they may be less likely to act immorally.

However, this question evades the true issue, which is whether or not G-d exists... for a person of faith, it doesn't matter whether having a belief in G-d effects one's personal behaviors. What matters is, G-d exists, hence I will live a life of faith, regardless of whether atheists are capable of being good people or not... essentially you are asking whether there is a practical reason/logic for believing in G-d. Atheists/agnostics are of course always going to assume its possible to be a good person without G-d-- there's no way to go around this issue. For those of faith, that question doesn't apply because we already believe in G-d

As an atheist, I am as good as I need to be. I have stayed clean & sober and out of jail for all of my 78 years, and have stayed happily married to the same woman for 33 years. Expecting more from me is expecting too much.

It brings me to a time where Pastor Montgomery was teaching on the difference between the providential side and the moral side of God's nature. It also depends on your definition of good. Let's take a look of the definitions of the word good.

1. morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious: a good man.
2. satisfactory in quality, quantity, or degree: a good teacher; good health.
3. of high quality; excellent.
4. right; proper; fit: It is good that you are here. His credentials are good.
5. well-behaved: a good child.
6. kind, beneficent, or friendly: to do a good deed.
7. honorable or worthy; in good standing: a good name.
8. educated and refined: She has a good background.
9. financially sound or safe: His credit is good.
10. genuine; not counterfeit: a good quarter.
11. sound or valid: good judgment; good reasons.
12. reliable; dependable; responsible: good advice.
13. healthful; beneficial: Fresh fruit is good for you.
14. in excellent condition; healthy: good teeth.
15. not spoiled or tainted; edible; palatable: The meat was still good after three months in the freezer.
16. favorable; propitious: good news.
17. cheerful; optimistic; amiable: in good spirits.
18. free of distress or pain; comfortable: to feel good after surgery.
19. agreeable; pleasant: Have a good time.
20. attractive; handsome: She has a good figure.
21. (of the complexion) smooth; free from blemish.
22. close or intimate; warm: She's a good friend of mine.
23. sufficient or ample: a good supply.
24. advantageous; satisfactory for the purpose: a good day for fishing.
25. competent or skillful; clever: a good manager; good at arithmetic.
26. skillfully or expertly done: a really good job; a good play.
27. conforming to rules of grammar, usage, etc.; correct: good English.
28. socially proper: good manners.
29. remaining available to one: Don't throw good money after bad.
30. comparatively new or of relatively fine quality: Don't play in the mud in your good clothes.
31. best or most dressy: He wore his good suit to the office today.
32. full: a good day's journey away.
33. fairly large or great: a good amount.
34. free from precipitation or cloudiness: good weather.
35. Medicine/Medical. (of a patient's condition) having stable and normal vital signs, being conscious and comfortable, and having excellent appetite, mobility, etc.
36. fertile; rich: good soil.
37. loyal: a good Democrat.
38. (of a return or service in tennis, squash, handball, etc.) landing within the limits of a court or section of a court.
39. Horse Racing. (of the surface of a track) drying after a rain so as to be still slightly sticky: This horse runs best on a good track.
40. (of meat, esp. beef) noting or pertaining to the specific grade below “choice,” containing more lean muscle and less edible fat than “prime” or “choice.”
41. favorably regarded (used as an epithet for a ship, town, etc.): the good ship Syrena.
–noun
42. profit or advantage; worth; benefit: What good will that do? We shall work for the common good.
43. excellence or merit; kindness: to do good.
44. moral righteousness; virtue: to be a power for good.
45. (esp. in the grading of U.S. beef) an official grade below that of “choice.”
46. goods,
a. possessions, esp. movable effects or personal property.
b. articles of trade; wares; merchandise: canned goods.
c. Informal. what has been promised or is expected: to deliver the goods.
d. Informal. the genuine article.
e. Informal. evidence of guilt, as stolen articles: to catch someone with the goods.
f. cloth or textile material: top-quality linen goods.
g. Chiefly British. merchandise sent by land, rather than by water or air.
47. the good,
a. the ideal of goodness or morality.
b. good things or persons collectively.
–interjection
48. (used as an expression of approval or satisfaction): Good! Now we can all go home.
–adverb
49. Informal. well.
—Idioms
50. as good as. as 1 (def. 22).
51. come to no good, to end in failure or as a failure: Her jealous relatives said that she would come to no good.
52. for good, finally and permanently; forever: to leave the country for good. Also, for good and all.
53. good and, Informal. very; completely; exceedingly: This soup is good and hot.
54. good for,
a. certain to repay (money owed) because of integrity, financial stability, etc.
b. the equivalent in value of: Two thousand stamps are good for one coffeepot.
c. able to survive or continue functioning for (the length of time or the distance indicated): These tires are good for another 10,000 miles.
d. valid or in effect for (the length of time indicated): a license good for one year.
e. (used as an expression of approval): Good for you!
55. good full, Nautical. (of a sail or sails) well filled, esp. when sailing close to the wind; clean full; rap full.
56. make good,
a. to make recompense for; repay.
b. to implement an agreement; fulfill.
c. to be successful.
d. to substantiate; verify.
e. to carry out; accomplish; execute: The convicts made good their getaway.
57. no good, without value or merit; worthless; contemptible: The check was no good.
58. to the good,
a. generally advantageous: That's all to the good, but what do I get out of it?
b. richer in profit or gain: When he withdrew from the partnership, he was several thousand dollars to the good.
If you take a look at definitions 2-17, when you hear the word good you think of these common definitions. On God's providential side of his nature you will fine that most people believe that they are good without God because they possess these qualities. In Genesis 2:7- And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Therefore man have the "good" qualities and all of the emotions that God possess. But most people fail to look at the first definition of good - morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious: a good man.
In Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. This first definition speaks about the moral side of God's nature. We have to become morally "good" as we as humanitarians. And if this is the case, then we cannot be "good" without God.

I don't think you have to have God to be good. I think it takes unselfishness and caring to be good, and that is all you really need. Personally, I believe in God, but do not practice any religion, because I find problems with religion and most (but not all) religious people.

Wiseclam, I completely agree, but thought I'd try to engage rather than shame on my first comment. The Rabbi's posts are much more closed doors than open windows. How he can claim to wield 3,000 years of Jewish wisdom is beyond me.

The advertisement did not state that one million New Yorkers DO good things without God. It claimed that one million New Yorkers ARE good without God. Someone cannot BE good if they have DONE something bad.

When an apple develops a bad spot, one can no longer say that the apple is good. A bruised apple can be said to be somewhat good or even mostly good; but once tainted with bad, the apple is no longer good as a whole.

People are the same way. Once someone is tainted with sin, they can no longer claim to be good. All such claims are, in reality, merely comparisons of one's own wickedness against that of another. The murderer claims that he is good because he is not as bad as the serial killer in the next cell. The shoplifter claims that he is good because he is not as bad as the jewelry thief. The one cheating on his taxes claims that he is good because he is not as bad as the embezzler. The one who tells an occasional "white" lie claims that he is good because he is not as bad as the chronic liar. All human claims of goodness are of this sort. There is no one who is intrinsically good.

"First, can people be good, in the moral and ethical sense, without being grounded in some kind of faith in some kind of being greater than themselves?"

If you define "good" as prayer, then obviously not. If you define it as being altruistic, honest, respectful, thoughtful, helpful - then clearly many people can and do behave that way without any belief in a higher power of any kind. It does not require a holy book to tell us that stealing is bad. It does not require a fear of hell to tell us that helping those less fortunate is good. It does not require a hope of heaven to tell us that we should be kind and loving.

I'm sorry that you feel that only theists are capable of being good. If you find that someone has done something you think is good, and then you discover that they're an atheist, do you change your mind about their actions? Have you actually survived as many decades as you have without ever seeing examples of atheists being moral and ethical? Or have you redefined their actions after discovering their lack of belief?

I wrote the previous and just wanted to add after reviewing my own posting that I am not bashing religions, but that people have to really examine what and who God really is. Is God is Jew, a muslim, a christian, or etc., or is he just the Creator of us all; whether we care enough to understand the Creator or believe in a big bang theory. It isn't about Christ, Muhummad, Budda, or etc., its about the Creator.

Marcus M
November 1, 2009 10:13 PM
... people have to really examine what and who God really is.
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How we do that?

Marcus M
November 1, 2009 10:13 PM
... is he just the Creator of us all...
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Which creation? When He created Adam and Eve in His Image? When Man re-created himself in his own image? Or when God re-creates us in His Image upon being born again?

No doubt about the original creation in His Image.

No doubt about the re-creation of Man in his own image.

However, not everybody receives Christ, and, thus, they are not re-created/regenerated in His Image.

So, originally, God created Man. Man voided that creation; that's why we must be born again. Not everybody is born again, and, so, not everybody is born of/re-created by God.

Marcus M
November 1, 2009 10:13 PM
It isn't about Christ...
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God begs to differ.

Marcus M
November 1, 2009 10:13 PM
... Muhummad, Budda, or etc....
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It's true that it's not about Mohammed, nor Buddha.

Marcus M
November 1, 2009 10:13 PM
... its [sic] about the Creator.
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Through Christ. God makes that clear.

"Divine connection" is not scriptural, unless you're talking about Christ being the only Mediator between God and Man.

The Pharisees thought that the Law is the mediator between God and Man. Those who reject God's offer of Reconciliation through Christ believe that they can be saved by the Law. Of course, they can't vary from the Law in even one point; it's 100%, or nothing. That's God's deal. This ain't "Let's Make a Deal."

The issue here, is not about what makes you happy, but rather;"Are
you good without God?" By God's standards, "no one is good." If we
could be good without God, there would be not need for a savior!
His Own Word, The Torah, The Prophets, The espistles,etc (The WHOLE
Bible will confirm this point. Due to the initial fall of Adam and Eve, all men thereafter are born with a sin nature and must be born
again spiritually, by repenting of their sins, and placing their
faith in Yeshua/Jesus. Then we receive HIS rightiousness. No one
is saved by good works, but one's faith in God must be backed by
good works; otherwise it is a vain faith.

Thats was for mr. incredible

Your Name
November 8, 2009 10:54 AM
I am not talking about Adam and Eve...
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Unfortunately, Adam and Eve is why we must be born again. You must talk about them in order to understand why we must be born again.

Your Name
November 8, 2009 10:43 AM
I believe in the God, the one who revealed himself only to Moses face to face...he revealed himself to Moses face to face...
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Christ, however, is the One who reveals God to us. He is the Revealer:

(Mat 11:27) All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

(Luk 10:22) All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

(Gal 1:16) To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

(Php 3:15) Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.