The discussion about circumcision will only go in circles until consideration of “human rights” is included.

I have never been one to abridge the religious rights of others when considering circumcision. Quite the opposite. That is too big a fish to fry. I am concerned about circumcision otherwise. In this country, to even pin-prick the female genitals is against the law. However, male genitals are fair game for significant modification beginning at birth. In this country currently 79% of adult males are circumcised. Yet, we have the highest rate of transmission of HIV and other STD’s. Meanwhile in Europe, where only about 5% of men are circumcised, the rates of HIV and STD’s is very low. Circumcision of newborns is unnecessary. We need to be more open in the US about sex, we need to greatly increase the education about and the availability of condoms and we need to undeerstand the true value of the foreskin during babyhood, youth and as adults. The foreskin is not the enemy…we are. I’d also like to point out that female circumcision, while far more barbaric than its male counterpart, is wrongly practiced in many foreign countries. The female genitals, moreso than the foreskin of the male, provide great breeding grounds for bacterial growth under certain conditions, yet we seldom hear that brought up in the circumcision discussion. I believe that the religious side and the secular side just need to call a truce on this issue.

To clarify my previous post…the US has the highest rates of HIV and several other STD’s among Westernized countries.

“Could those who oppose circumcision reconsider the long-term known health benefits and how to achieve them if they continue to reject circumcision?”
That question is really easy to answer. There are no long-term health benefits.
There is no medical organization in the world, including Israel’s, which recommends routine infant circumcision for medical reasons.
The original Jewish circumcision removed only the tip of the prepuce.
Today’s typical circumcision, Jewish or non-Jewish, removes or severely damages the two most erogenous parts of a male, the frenulum and the inner prepuce.
There is such a thing as a bloodless bris.
http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/jcvoice.htm
There is no medical or scientific reason for routine infant circumcision. It violates the first ethical directive of medicine, ‘first, do no harm’. Removing healthy tissue from a non-consenting person is not within the realm of medical ethics. If people want to circumcise, they should use religion, and not attempt to use medicine or science as their reasoning.

Rather than each side marshalling evidence to “prove” that which they already believe, I wonder if both those of us who favor circumcision and those who oppose it, could admit that either position is deeply rooted in things far bigger than cold, hard facts.

Apparently not, since the former is all that seems to be happening here. Nice suggestion, though, rabbi.

circumcision helps avoid AIDS. Religion is not relevant. But then if we circumcize men, it’s only fair to do a female circumcision?

Well, I disagree that there is more than one answer.
The only righteous answer is to let the male decide for himself when is old enough make an informed decision. Thous Shall Not Steal healthy normal body parts without consent.

‘Circumcise Me’: The Mohel the Merrier?
Yisrael Campbell talks of cutting-edge movie, play — and his Catholic background in Philly
October 22, 2009 – Michael Elkin, Arts & Entertainment Editor, Philadelphia Jewish Exponent
They say the man works for tips. Dunno. Seems “Circumcise Me” comic Yisrael Campbell has his future pretty much sewn up.
The unorthodox Orthodox star of the documentary — opening the Philadelphia Jewish Film Festival on Saturday night, Oct. 24 — and his off-Broadway play of the same name could have been as easily called “Yisrael Scissorhands.”
Three times? Really?
“Yes, I did get circumcised three times,” says the converted Catholic without even an “ouch” in his voice, regaling one with the dicey details of mohel information than a visitor needs to know about his Reform, Conservative and Orthodox circumcisions. After he discovered Judaism, the religion led him to the Promised Land away from the chaotic alcohol and drug-infused streets he had been traveling in and around Philly.

“I know that admitting that there is more than one right answer to such sensitive issues scares people, but shouldn’t it scare us more to hurt each other over those very issues?”
Yes, Rabbi, I agree. Unfortunately, your colleague, David Klinghoffer, the host of BELIEFNET’s “Kingdom of Priests” blog, does not. And he acts accordingly, by ‘unpublishing’ postings which take issue with his imperious diktats.
For example,
Here is a October 19 posting-critique which was suppressed by him.
Mr. Klinghoffer:
You scare me because you did not spend the formative years of your life growing up as an authentic Jew, and because, culturally, you are not Jewish.
You offend me because you lack humility and ‘class’ and are intellectually dishonest.
You scare me because you have aligned yourself with Christian extremists who, like Ann Coulter, wish to see Jews “perfected” by accepting Jesus.
You offend me because of your snarky disregard for the message of the Hebrew prophets.
You scare me because you have aligned yourself with people who, by their anti-evolution and therefore anti-science stance, wish to see America fall behind the rest of the world scientifically, and therefore fail economically.
You offend me because you will not openly listen to or even consider opposing points of view from intelligent people, especially on Judaic themes.
You scare me because you refuse to engage in the complexity that is American and world Jewry in all its contradictions, energy and glory; but, instead, exploit the forum provided by BELIEFNET to circulate gormless autocratic bromides.
Most of all, you both scare and offend me by your contentedness in turning your back on the State of Israel in her current time of need.
How does it feel, Mr. Klinghoffer, to be the flesh-and-blood embodiment of Lionel Bengelsdorf*?
*Cf. Philip Roth’s book, The Plot against America

What is the Jewish ruling from all branches of Jewish faith regarding the circomsizing of converting young males? My nephew who is 11 refuses to let “anyone touch my Penis”What do people think?

Is circumcision for everyone? Maybe not such a good idea for women or
men who have been circumcised previously.

RABBI: ” I know that admitting that there is more than one right answer to such sensitive issues scares people, but shouldn’t it scare us more to *hurt each other* over those very issues?”
KB: Hurting is an inherent part of cutting the genitals of children. Young girls in Africa and the Middle East know this. Young boys in the USA and selected other parts of the world know this. Yet, too many adults, like yourself, don’t seem to get it.
You can try to, but you will never be able to separate hurting from the discussin of cutting children’s genitals. It doesn’t matter if the are Jewish children or African children. Cutting ANYONE by FORCE is always hurtful. No matter HOW you try to justify it.

RABBI: ” I know that admitting that there is more than one right answer to such sensitive issues scares people, but shouldn’t it scare us more to *hurt each other* over those very issues?”
KR: Hurting is an inherent part of cutting the genitals of children. Young girls in Africa and the Middle East know this. Young boys in the USA and selected other parts of the world know this. Yet, too many adults, like yourself, don’t seem to get it.
You can try to, but you will never be able to separate hurting from the discussin of cutting children’s genitals. It doesn’t matter if they are Jewish children or African children. Cutting ANYONE by FORCE is always hurtful. No matter HOW you try to justify it.

I have two sons that are circumcised, and I’m glad its done and over with. The most gross thing in the world is staring down at something as grotesque as an uncircumcised penis. Please excuse my bluntness. As far as cleanliness goes its a breeding ground for a science project. As far as my sons concern they are grateful and pleased that I had it done at birth…

I just think that this anti-circumcision movement is veiled anti-semitism. There are some, who even equate circumcision to female genital mutilation. Nothing could be further from the truth.
There are adults who get circumcised because of discomfort and certain conditions.
When circumcision is done in infancy, by someone who really knows how to do it, it is far less painful and it heals far faster, with fewer complications.

First – female circumcision removes the clitoris which is the center of female sexual pleasure. Males who have or don’t have a foreskin still have sexual pleasure. I won’t debate who has greater – that’s subjective.
Female circumcision is for controlling a woman’s sexuality. If a woman doesn’t feel pleasure, she won’t “run around” on her husband it is thought by tribes and groups that practice this.
Female circumcision sometimes also involves sewing up the vagina leaving only a small opening for menstrual fluid to escape. Mothers, grandmothers and aunties of the child do this procedure. Often the procedure is done without any kind of anesthetic or sanitary conditions. The husband, on the wedding night, then has to consummate the marriage causing great pain to his bride.
The comparison to male circumcision – often a great celebration under the most sanitary of conditions sickens me.

Both male and female circumcision are unwarranted attacks on the genitals of infants and children. The intent of both male and female circumcision is for controlling sexuality. (See Rabbi Moses Maimonides explanation in his guide to the perplexed.) Both male and female genital cutting happen in sanitary conditions and in unsanitary conditions. Both male and female circumcision are done with and without anesthetic. Both male and female children die from the procedure. People who violate the genitals of their male and female children have built up a culture around genital mutilation to obscure the truth and make the event a celebration, palatable to the onlookers.
News of the deaths and other accidents of circumcision are often suppressed. A few that have come to light recently are:
HAARETZ, Tel Aviv, 14 December 2004. The Rishon Letzion Magistrate’s Court on Tuesday ordered the former rabbi of the Gan Yavneh local council to pay a child and his parents NIS 1.18 million in damages after the child was left severely disfigured when he was circumcised by the rabbi.
New York, October 2004 Rabbi Yitzhok Fischer of NY performed circumcision followed by oral/genital (metzizah bi peh) and passed the herpes virus onto twin boys, killing one.
Amitai Moshe, age 8 days, went into cardiac arrest after a ritual circumcision at Golder’s Green Synagogue, London. He was taken from the synagogue directly to hospital and died eight days later.
Many Jewish families are opting to welcome their precious baby boys without harming their genitals. Google Alternate bris for more info.
Check out the Jewish Circumcision Resource Center at http://www.jewishcircumcision.org for more information.

Both male and female circumcision are unwarranted attacks on the genitals of infants and children. The intent of both male and female circumcision is for controlling sexuality. (See Rabbi Moses Maimonides explanation in his guide to the perplexed.) Both male and female genital cutting happen in sanitary conditions and in unsanitary conditions. Both male and female circumcision are done with and without anesthetic. Both male and female children die from the procedure. People who violate the genitals of their male and female children have built up a culture around genital mutilation to obscure the truth and make the event a celebration, palatable to the onlookers.
News of the deaths and other accidents of circumcision are often suppressed. A few that have come to light recently are:
HAARETZ, Tel Aviv, 14 December 2004. The Rishon Letzion Magistrate’s Court on Tuesday ordered the former rabbi of the Gan Yavneh local council to pay a child and his parents NIS 1.18 million in damages after the child was left severely disfigured when he was circumcised by the rabbi.
New York, October 2004 Rabbi Yitzhok Fischer of NY performed circumcision followed by oral/genital (metzizah bi peh) and passed the herpes virus onto twin boys, killing one.
Amitai Moshe, age 8 days, went into cardiac arrest after a ritual circumcision at Golder’s Green Synagogue, London. He was taken from the synagogue directly to hospital and died eight days later.
Many Jewish families are opting to welcome their precious baby boys without harming their genitals. Google Alternate bris for more info.
Check out the Jewish Circumcision Resource Center at http://www.jewishcircumcision.org for more information.

Meko: Grostesque? I’m sorry you feel that the natural human body, as God designed it, is grotesque. You are entitled to your opinion. Regarding the area under the foreskin being a “breeding ground for a science project,” the same can be said about the female genetalia, only on a larger scale.

Since “JewishCircumcision.org” has posted at least 5 times here out of the 19 comments so far, saying mostly the same things over and over, may I suggest that people make their point and simply move on when people either a) do not respond to them or b) they fail to noticeably convert anyone to their view? Because one tends to come off as desperate at best and fanatical at worst – both being difficult to take seriously.
As the rabbi has noted, people are dead set in their view on the subject and rather than trying to convince others (or the Anonymous Internet) so desperately that they are correct, open discussion could somehow exist. And a blog comments section isn’t always the best place to do so, but I think it’s a valid suggestion.

Whatever the arguements for or against circumcision- the undeniable truth remains that no-one has the right to perform any non-theraputic surgery on unconsenting infants be they male, female or intersex.
If religion, culture or personal choice requires such intervention it should be postponed until the age of consent is reached. I suggest 18 or older.

HarrietB98 says:
“I just think that this anti-circumcision movement is veiled anti-semitism”
This is a good film made by a Jew named Eliyahu Ungar-Sargon. I rather doubt he is anti-semitic or self-hating. I am also part Jewish and I know I am not anti-semitic or self-hating. I know that I can have a great deal of respect & pride for my Jewish heritage but still oppose archaic blood rituals.
http://www.cutthefilm.com/Cut_Website/Home.html
Shalom
KR

(2) With regards to the Jewish community:
Little is it known of all the myths that Jews believe about circumcision, the one that is paramount is the belief that all Jews circumcise. With this belief most put themselves under tremendous pressure to conform. Bound by this burden to comply with social expectations, most Jewish parents do not recognise that circumcision is a choice.
Since open communication about circumcision is discouraged, there is virtually no awareness of others who feel similar conflicts and doubts around circumcision. Moreover, if a Jewish parent does decide not to circumcise a male child, it is not generally known to the rest of the community. As a result many parents submit to the pressure and then discover only too late, perhaps after witnessing the circumcision of their son, that they wish they had chosen differently.
Growing numbers of American Jews are now leaving their sons intact as they view circumcision as part of Jewish law they can no longer accept.
In many parts of Europe, Jews now protect their babies from circumcision, and yet they still consider themselves active members of the Jewish community. Throughout the Soviet Union circumcision was forbidden by law at the behest of politically active Jews themselves. Still even without circumcision, Soviet Jews preserve their sense of identity.
Alternative brit b’li milah ceremonies (ritual naming ceremonies without cutting) are being performed by some rabbis. Increasing numbers of intact boys are going to religious schools, having bar mitzvahs, and taking their place as young adults in the Jewish community
Circumcision: my position by Mark Reiss M.D.
I am a 68 year old retired physician, a Jew who is a member of a conservative synagogue.
As a Jewish grandfather, I want to assure young couples about to bring a child into the world that there are other members of the “older” generation, including other Jewish physicians, and even some rabbis, who feel as I do. If your heart and instincts tell you to leave your son intact, listen!
Circumcision is not an identity issue. You do not have to be circumcised to be Jewish any more than you need to observe many other Jewish laws.
The bottom line is: If your mother is Jewish you are Jewish, period.
All intelligent Jewish people are aware of the Talmudic concept of ‘Tsa’ ar ba’ lei chayyim’, compassion for every living creature. If compassion in all its fullness were applied to 8 day old babies, circumcision would become impossible.
Many Jews are re-embracing the core fundamentals of Judaism and finding that circumcision is incompatible with these ethic doctrines.
Dr Jenny Goodman has written: In Judaism and in Islam, the human being is considered to be made in the image of God, and God is conceptualised as perfect.
One could argue that interfering with Gods perfect creation is a form of blasphemy. In Judiasm there is a law of ‘Shmirat Ha Guf’ the guarding and protecting of the body. Body piercing amputation etc are forbidden
Abraham Geiger 1810-1874 distinguished rabbi and scholar disapproved of circumcision and stated:
I cannot support circumcision with any conviction, It remains a barbaric, bloody act, which fills the father with anxiety and subjects the mother to morbid stress.
The idea of sacrifice, which once consecrated the procedure, has certainly vanished amongst us, as it should. It is a brutal act that does not deserve continuation, no matter how much religious sentiment may have clung to it in the past
The great rabbi Moses Maimonides
(1135-1204) one of the greatest thinkers was very clear when he came to revealing the reason for circumcision: As regards circumcision, I think that one of its objects is to limit sexual intercourse, and to weaken the organ of generation as far as possible, and thus cause man to become moderate…Circumcision simply counteracts excessive lust; for there is no doubt that circumcision weakens the power of sexual excitement and lessens natural enjoyment.
Paul Fleiss M.D. said “I can think of no better way to infect the baby with all manner of horrible diseases, including HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases.” At the end of the nineteenth century, diseased ritual circumcisers routinely infected Jewish babies with tuberculosis by sucking the baby’s penis and filling the open wound with their diseased saliva. In addition to spreading tuberculosis, circumcisers regularly killed Jewish babies by infecting them with syphilis and diphtheria.
Severe medical complications from ‘metzitza’ ceremonies continue to appear in the medical literature.
The March 2000 issue of the Paediatric Infectious Disease Journal reported that two American Jewish infants had been infected with neonatal cutaneous herpes simplex a potentially life-threatening infection-after having been circumcised and having their bleeding penises sucked by an infectious circumciser. Warnings of other diseases such as Hepatitis B, Hepatitis C and HIV were given by this method
By the late fifth century B.C. at the time of the return of the Jews from Babylonian captivity, the priesthood tried to confirm their status as the dominant political force amongst the Israelites.
They did this by instituting a temple-centred sacrificial cult into which newborn males were initiated by circumcision.
They created the Abraham circumcision myth and inserted it into the most important part of Geneses, pretending that it had been there all along.
Biblical scholars have known that the passage about Abraham’s covenant with god was never original to the bible. It was added after one thousand years after the time of Abraham.
The original version of genesis which dates from 950B.C. is “It was that day Yahweh cut a covenant with Abram: “I gave this land to your seed, from the river of Egypt to the great rive, Euphrates -of the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, the Kadmonite; of the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Rephaim; of the Amorite, the Canaanite, the Girgashite, the Jusbisite.”
Chapter 17 (Abrahams circumcision covenant with God) is suspiciously missing.
Again I see no reason that (some) Jews should persist in mutilating their children as a substitute in a long lost ritual of killing a child as a human sacrifice.
This opportunity of moving into a new Country gives them a chance to clean up their act and stop mutilating their children.
For our laws to be modified (putting our own children at risk) to cater for unproven religious mutilations borders on lunacy.
Age of consent should be the legal age for genital mutilation for all religious circumcisions in Australia.
It would be quite obvious that persistent demand by religious leaders for earlier circumcisions would show that they are worried that if a child is protected by law to the age of consent the child would never undergo religious circumcision in his life, weakening their hold over these people.
If this being the case, the more the reason it is for bringing in legal protection of male children as was given to girls.
Children have the full rights of any human being. They are not partial humans. They are our ultimate investment. We must teach them compassion, peace, and trust if we want them, in the future, to be able to take care of us and our world with responsibility, reason, and loving kindness.
History has shown that it is best to avoid inflicting any degree of pain, trauma, or violence on our children. Our society would be greatly improved and enhanced if circumcision, along with other forms and degrees of injustice and violence against children, would stop.
Studies consistently demonstrate that providing our infants and children with a home environment that is loving, safe, secure, compassionate, affectionate, nurturing, and orderly is the best way to ensure that our children grow up to be reverent, moral, responsible, independent, self-confident, self-disciplined, secure, successful, rational, compassionate, and emotionally, physically, and mentally healthy adults of good character.
Protecting our sons from circumcision and ensuring that they enjoy the lifetime of natural benefits and protections that the intact human body can bring is part of the responsible parenting that produces responsible adults.

I was raised Christian but converted to Judasim in my early 40s. My first (Christian) husband was not circumcised, although his older brother was. (Apart from that ex-husband, I have never known an uncircumcised man, and I am remarried and nearly 60 years old.) We had two sons, both of whom were circumcised in the hospital shortly after birth. Each of my sons eventually fathered two boys of their own. As expected, they were all circumcised. The last one, though, didn’t experience a routine hospital circumcision. He came home for a few days before undergoing the procedure in the pediatrician’s office. I was there when he first came home, as doting grandma. Believe it or not, this baby was the first time I had ever seen an intact penis on an infant. It was perfect. Just as God had intended. I knew the parents were going to have him circumcised, but for the first time in my life, I wondered, WHY? If God designed this tiny human in this way, WHY in the world do we think we ought to change it? Medical — as opposed to ritual — circumcision has been the standard in America for many years now, to the point where the incidence of Jewish ritual circumcision doesn’t deviate much from the national norm. I am pretty sure now that had I been able to get to know my baby boys before the procedure, I would not have let it happen. Yes, it is a religious ritual. Yes, it is an American medical standard of care. But the question still remains for me. WHY? Why do we think our standard of creation is above God’s?
xjtus6

I agree with Dr. Peter Ball (Is his name a joke associated with this topic or really his name?)
At any rate, NON-Essential surgery on an non-consenting infant in this day and age is nothing short of barbarism. The concept of people as property, whether women or children has no place in a modern civilized world.
With the advent of of modern medicine and anesthetics..it doesn’t seem unreasonable to wait until the person is of a majority age, and let them decide if it is something they want to participate in…there are a number of ‘Laws’ in the Torah that are absolutely of no relevance in today’s world, and with all due respect to this ‘fundamental’ ritual, it is mutilation of an ‘non-consenting’ infant who has no say in the matter.
I , myself feel similarly that a ‘temporary’ name be assigned to a child and at the appropriate age, they should be able to choose their own name based on how they perceive their ‘self-hood’ rather than having the ‘personality’ forced on them by their parent. I know for most, this would seem absurd..but for me, it is time the human species began to evolve to a higher level of consciousness regarding all humans, including their own children. End the ‘people’ as property mentality and begin by ending these acts that are based on the premise that people are property. (Their MY kids I can do as I please attitude)

that should read: THEY’RE (not their) my kids I can do as I please

I am a childbirth worker, Christian, and ardent spokeswoman for baby boys’ intact penises. The toughest people to convince of the importance of leaving boys intact are the Jewish grandmothers. The two facts that I present to them that change their minds about genital cutting are:
1. that quote by the Rabbi in the 14th century that Mr. Carveth put in his comments above about “don’t let your women lie with an intact man or she’ll never come back to you.”
2. the fact that, under Jewish law, if a family has two sons who die from circumcision, they are exempted from having to cut their third son.
Jewish people adore their kids. Most are unaware that 200 boys a year die in the U.S. from circumcision complications. A great many more boys get infected from the surgery or lose a frightening amount of blood.
When someone urges you to keep your sons intact, please hear the love and goodwill that is being offered to Jewish baby boys who deserve gentle, kind care.

“Rather than one side screaming about …, and that side screaming about …, ”
Why do we always think that mutilating our children’s only sex organs for life is about US? What about THEIR screams?
“I know that admitting that there is more than one right answer to such sensitive issues scares people, but shouldn’t it scare us more to hurt each other over those very issues?”
Why do we never consider hurting our CHILDREN? Again, what makes us think this is about US?
My father has been dead since 1996. My penis is still partial. This madness was not about my father. It was about me and my wife, and it happened to us 67 years ago, seven years before she was even born. It was about US. It was about HER. And no one ever gave her a single thought. They just chopped up our one and only penis, for life. Loonies.

“My nephew who is 11 refuses to let “anyone touch my Penis”What do people think?”
Your nephew is one of the smartest men who ever lived.

DON’T TOUCH HIS PENIS!

To read some of the many-faceted wisdom of Jewish Nobel laureate and Harvard biology professor George Wald on this subject, copy the url above into your browser window.

“lots of compelling evidence about the health benefits, both personal and public, of circumcision, including reducing HIV/AIDS, multiple forms of cancer, etc.”
The evidence is only compelling to those who want to be compelled. “Reducing” of this or that disease has to be measured against the rarity of that disease. Female-to-male HIV transmission and penile cancer are both very rare in the US, and any link with cervical cancer is indirect, through HPV, for which there is now a vaccine. (No direct link has been demonstrated.) It also has to be measured against the risks of the surgery itself, up to and including death. It should also be measured against when the diseases are likely to strike. With few exceptions, they are of adult onset, and adult men can decide for themselves what action they want to take about them.
“the long-term known health benefits and how to achieve them if they continue to reject circumcision”
How to achieve them is well known in the many countries that have never accepted circumcision, such as Scandinavia, most of Europe, South and Central America, Asia and much of South East Asia. The rest of the English-speaking world tried it, found it did no good and has virtually given it up.
“there is more than one right answer”
How can it be wrong to cut irreplaceable, healthy, functional genital tissue off one baby and not another? (And I don’t specify the sex of the baby….) The issues that divide their parents mean nothing to them. They grow up to be autonomous adults with their own ideas about how much of their genitals they may want to keep.

meko, on October 24, 2009 2:59 PM, says,
“I have two sons that are circumcised, and I’m glad its done and over with.”
Over with for YOU, but it never will be for THEM. THEIR sexual mutilations are not about YOU.
“The most gross thing in the world is staring down at something as grotesque as an uncircumcised penis.”
In Africa the men say, “The most gross thing in the world is staring down at something as grotesque as an uncircumcised vulva.” The truth is that neither sex organ is grotesque, at least in their natural states. What is truly grotesque is adults SEEING children’s normal sex organs as grotesque. It is the mutilating ADULTS who are truly grotesque, and a threat to the healthy integrity and to the very lives of their children. ADULTS’ sickness must not be allowed to mutilate children for life. That is the bottom line. Children must be protected form this madness by law. There is no other solution.
“Please excuse my bluntness.”
I don’t excuse it, I THANK you for it. You make it possible for people to see in broad daylight what kind of gross, mutilating insanity will injure and may kill their children if they don’t carefully protect them from it. See http://intact.wikia.com/wiki/Death_By_Circumcision You provide a better warning against circumcision than I ever could.
“As far as cleanliness goes its a breeding ground for a science project.”
Human beings are practically MADE out of germs. We have more bacterial cells in our bodies than we do cells of our own, and without them we would quickly die.
“As far as my sons concern they are grateful and pleased that I had it done at birth…”
And in Africa the mutilating mothers say, “As far as my daughters concern they are grateful and pleased that I had it done in childhood…”
Mark Twain said, “When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.”
Just don’t let your madness injure or kill your own children if you can help it.

Harrietb98, on October 24, 2009 3:31 PM, says:
“I just think that this anti-circumcision movement is veiled anti-semitism.”
I think it’s circumcising itself that is anti-Semitic, when done to Jews. Anything that always injures and sometimes kills Jewish babies is anti-Semitic in my book. How much more anti-Semitic can you get that injuring and killing Jewish babies?
“There are some, who even equate circumcision to female genital mutilation. Nothing could be further from the truth.”
Male and female circumcision are different in some ways, similar in others, and identical in still others.
The most common form of FGM is cutting off the female foreskin. A female foreskin is similar and different from a male foreskin. For one thing, the average female foreskin is much smaller than the average male foreskin. Does that make it more important? I say no, and that it doesn’t make it any less important either. Female foreskins are important o both sexes, as are male foreskins.
In the most important ways, FGM and MGM are identical. That is, both are gross human rights violations of the child’s bodily integrity, security of person, etc.
Every circumcision is individual, and is both identical with, similar to and different from every other circumcision. What sex the child happens to have been born is 100% irrelevant. Circumcising them injures and kills children of all sexes.

Harrietb98, on October 24, 2009 3:31 PM, says:
“I just think that this anti-circumcision movement is veiled anti-semitism.”
I think it’s circumcising itself that is anti-Semitic, when done to Jews. Anything that always injures and sometimes kills Jewish babies is anti-Semitic in my book. How much more anti-Semitic can you get that injuring and killing Jewish babies?
“There are some, who even equate circumcision to female genital mutilation. Nothing could be further from the truth.”
Male and female circumcision are different in some ways, similar in others, and identical in still others.
The most common form of FGM is cutting off the female foreskin. A female foreskin is similar and different from a male foreskin. For one thing, the average female foreskin is much smaller than the average male foreskin. Does that make it more important? I say no, and that it doesn’t make it any less important either. Female foreskins are important o both sexes, as are male foreskins.
In the most important ways, FGM and MGM are identical. That is, both are gross human rights violations of the child’s bodily integrity, security of person, etc.
Every circumcision is individual, and is both identical with, similar to and different from every other circumcision. What sex the child happens to have been born is 100% irrelevant. Circumcising them injures and kills children of all sexes.

Harrietb98, on October 24, 2009 3:31 PM, says:
“I just think that this anti-circumcision movement is veiled anti-semitism.”
I think it’s circumcising itself that is anti-Semitic, when done to Jews. Anything that always injures and sometimes kills Jewish babies is anti-Semitic in my book. How much more anti-Semitic can you get that injuring and killing Jewish babies?
“There are some, who even equate circumcision to female genital mutilation. Nothing could be further from the truth.”
Male and female circumcision are different in some ways, similar in others, and identical in still others.
The most common form of FGM is cutting off the female foreskin. A female foreskin is similar and different from a male foreskin. For one thing, the average female foreskin is much smaller than the average male foreskin. Does that make it more important? I say no, and that it doesn’t make it any less important either. Female foreskins are important o both sexes, as are male foreskins.
In the most important ways, FGM and MGM are identical. That is, both are gross human rights violations of the child’s bodily integrity, security of person, etc.
Every circumcision is individual, and is both identical with, similar to and different from every other circumcision. What sex the child happens to have been born is 100% irrelevant. Circumcising them injures and kills children of all sexes.

Readers of the book of the Exodus know that circumcision was not performed during these fourty years of nomadism.
The Second Commandment says:
“… I am a jealous God, who prosecute the crime of fathers upon children…”
it does not say “the crimes of fathers” nor “the crime of the father”.
Therefore it merely means:
“THOU SHALL NOT CIRCUMCISE.”
Every other interpretation is intellectual falsification (cf. http://circabolition.multiply.com/journal/item/341/Moses_Jesus_and_Mohammed_against_sexual_mutilation).

Most the men in the world are not circumcised and get by just fine. So cutting off body parts to prevent illness or disease is not a good reason. Let’s cut off women’s breasts buds in babyhood so they won’t develop the truly deadly disease of breast cancer! Bottle-feeding is just fine for babies.
Other reasons are whatever they are. If my religion has this thing about cutting off foreskin for ritualistic reasons, ok…let’s call it what it is.
Of my two sons, one is circumcised, the other isn’t. And yes, I do consider it sexual mutilation. Just me!

I am a Christian woman of 2 sons. My husband is uncircumcised and he said his sons will be circumcised for health reasons, he saw many uncircumcised military personal with some pretty gross infections who were uncircumcised. When he asked why his men had such a problem he was told uncircumcised men have a greater chance of developing infections if cleaning was not done properly and who and what they came in contact with after leaving the ship on leave. I choice to have my sons circumcised because I saw it as a law G-D had proclaimed in his Word. My sons were circumcised at birth with a plastic ring around the excess foreskin which then fell off after a week. No pain nor discomfort for them. It was similiar to the ring put around their navel cord.

“I am a Christian woman of 2 sons. My husband is uncircumcised and he said his sons will be circumcised for health reasons, he saw many uncircumcised military personal with some pretty gross infections who were uncircumcised…I choice to have my sons circumcised because I saw it as a law G-D had proclaimed in his Word”
1> Husband was told…told by whom? Health authority?? research scientist? Why was he so interested in the penises of his fellow soldiers?? If they got infections on shore leave, how? Illicit and fornicating sexual contact??? That is an issue separate from circumcision..circumcised or not that is forbidden in the old and new testaments.
2. Circumcision was a law given to the Jews only as a covenant between G*d and the Jews and specifically addressed in the New testament as having no validity for the incoming gentile believers. For the Apostle Paul circumcision or not had nothing to do with salvation through faith in Christ and was considered null and void as a covenant. Jews who came into the believer’s circle were very free to continue their traditions as long as they didn’t equate their traditions with gaining righteousness before God.
It is child mutilation…which by the way has been shown that a great number of pleasure enhancing nerves are contained in the foreskin.so basically you have robbed your sons of greater sexual enjoyment by mutilating such a sensitive area.
If God created the human body..why does he demand destruction of it?? Seems a bit contra-dick-tory doesn’t it? At any rate, adopting this Jewish tradition/ritual into Christianity is really out of line with Christian orthodox teachings.

It says in the Torah – which was given to us by HaShem – that we circumcise our sons. Period.
If you don’t like it, then don’t be Jewish. We wouldn’t want you anyway.
And yes, I see some pretty UN-veiled antisemitism…right on this page, in fact.

“It says in the Torah – which was given to us by HaShem – that we circumcise our sons. Period.
If you don’t like it, then don’t be Jewish. We wouldn’t want you anyway.
And yes, I see some pretty UN-veiled antisemitism…right on this page, in fact.”
I think the pot just called the kettle black. A person is a Jew if he or she is born to a Jewish mother (or Father in Reform Congregations). Period. It has nothing to do with whether or not you are circumcised.
I find that middle sentence deeply offensive on many levels. Firstly, to all the proud Jews who chose and choose not to circumcise their children, despite the ridiculous amount of pressure to. And secondly, as a human being. Essentially you have reduced Judaism to a club that in order to join, you must agree to be hazed. That, sir, is ridiculous.
This is not about Judaism, as you seem to want to make it be. This is about CHOICE. You say “If you don’t like it, then don’t be Jewish.” Children don’t have that choice. That is all we are saying. It doesn’t matter if the child’s parents are Jewish, or Christian, or Muslim, or Pagan, or fill in the blank. Children’s bodies simply do not belong to their parents religion, or culture, or “preferences”. Their bodies belong to them and them alone, and the only time a child’s body should be cut is for absolutely necessary medical treatment (which circumcision is obviously not).

Jon, it’s important to remember that we can’t follow something just because it is in a religious text or because God says to do so. It has to be within the scope of the law and within the scope of freedom of religion.
It is very unlikely that it is within the scope of freedom of religion to have the right to alter someone else’s body in the name of religion without their consent.

It always amazes me the lengths people will go to to justify this pervasive form of perversion.
The claims of health benefits are false. There are none. There is a single form of cancer that has been attributed to male circumcision, not multiples. That form is extremely rare and imminently curable. There is also a vaccine against the virus that causes it and is available to both males and females. If (and that is a very qualified “if”) the virus actually causes this cancer and if circumcision has any effect on it, circumcision is an extreme form of prophylaxis. For each curable cancer averted, 6 infant will die of the circumcision procedure or ritual.
Circumcision is also worthless for prevention of HIV. The studies claim a 60% protective factor, similar to the effectiveness of the polio vaccine. The polio vaccine eliminated the easily transmitted virus from the populace in a single generation yet with some 80% of the adult male population in The US circumcised, the relatively difficult to pass HIV virus is running unimpeded through the populace. As a matter of fact, the most circumcised portion of the population, African Americans also has the highest HIV infection rate by far with 48% of infected males being African American males and 80% of infected females being African American females. Even in Africa, male circumcision has not shown results. In Swaziland, 98% of males are circumcised yet the HIV infection rate is 22% and growing. If male circumcision were effective, HIV would be virtually unknown in these populations as the vectors of transmission would be sufficiently broken that it could not pass through the populations.
Male circumcision has always been justified by claiming it will prevent the most dread disease of the day and cancer and HIV are simply the most dread diseases of our day.
Male circumcision is also over the top to prevent anything. The same bacteria, fungals and virals that infect males are the same exact ones that infect females and the exact same medications used to treat females are equally effective in males. The only difference is that surgery is culturally acceptable for males and not for females.
As a last ditch rationalization, people use religion to justify this perversion but that is a false justification too. For Christians, The New Testament is very clear that it is a rejection of Christ. Jews fall back on The Covenant that appears in Genesis but the original texts of Genesis show The Covenant to be conspiciously absent. After The Temple burned, the original texts were reconstructed from the remnants and memory and magically, The Covenant appeared. It seems that the Jews noticed the practice of Egyptian priests, men of power and wealth and decided to emulate the practice as a means to convey false status on themselves and their tribe. This is similar to young people of today adopting tattooing in emulation of today’s rock stars. In both cases, it is a marking of false status.

Thank you all for your interesting points regarding why I should not have been circumcised and why I should not have circumcised my son. While I do not know enough about medicine or ancient Torah scroll espionage to doubt your statements, I do not doubt your passion. That part is clear.
We haven’t heard, it seems, from many circumcised men about their own feelings (emotional and otherwise). I would like to say that in my own case, as an adult, if I had to choose between foreskin with more sexual pleasure and circumcision, I would choose the latter. Perhaps the practice was instituted (in my opinion, by G-d) to lessen pleasure. Maybe the deal, the covenant, was that you get all the benefits of being a Jew, I want a sacrifice of sexual pleasure- not a lot (Really. I enjoy sex a great deal. Nothing feels missing at all.) but some, to prove that a special relationship with the Creator is worth it to you as a people. Maybe. I wasn’t there.
I was there at my son’s bris. I actually did the cut, after everything was set up by the moil/Dr. (If you have the chance to get a moil who is also a doctor, I recommend it. He was wonderful.) Did my son cry? Yep. he cried for about five seconds. Did it hurt? I don’t know. Maybe it did; maybe it was shock. Did I ask him before cutting him? No. He was a baby. It is my job to make decisions for him until he can make them on his own.
If you don’t want to circumcise, please don’t. You want to propose bills that mandate that a moil has certain medical background or state certification? Okay with me. But when you want to outlaw the practice, that’s when I battle against you. If it passes, I battle for repeal. And if need be, with all appeals exhausted, I believe I would move to another state, or out of the US if it was federal. You want to protect people from getting cut up? Outlaw surgeons. You want to actually protect people from the procedures they choose to have (or must have)? Then make the practice safer. Faith cannot be regulated, and circumcision is a matter of faith for Jews. (If you choose not to do it for your sons, that is a choice of faith, too, as you choose to not do something that is prescribed.
Just one man’s thoughts…

James Loewen, I’m with you buddy.
Meko, I feel sorry that you don’t appreciate the male body as G-d made him.
What a sad person you are.
Why anyone would take a scalpel to a baby is beyond me.
I hope the antiquated practice dies out quickly with the misguided violent people who think it is the right thing to do because it was done to them as a child.
G-d help you, and I wish you enlightenment.

Michael Wall, I am a circumcised man who would choose not to be circumcised. Unfortunately, that choice was never offered to me.
Unlike you, I have experienced both circumcised sex and sex with a foreskin because I recently restored my foreskin. The difference is amazing. When I was young, I enjoyed sex, tremendously, and I was circumcised then.
But, as I aged, it took me longer to ejaculate and I stopped having orgasms as my glans and inner foreskin remnant keratinized. After restoring, I have mind-blowing orgasms and my glans is once again very sensitive. See http://www.RestoringForeskin.org for more info.
To a man deaf in one ear, stereo sound is no better than mono.

My family is Jewish; from an early age I knew about circumcision and thought it was a positive thing. As I grew older and had misgivings about circumcision, mostly from a strictly physiologic standpoint (how blood vessels and nerve endings are affected; how fibroblasts form at the scar site), I nevertheless always believed that I would have any sons of mine circumcised. It was a clear obligation to do so.
However, after delving fairly deeply into the issue for almost 20 years — more to reassure myself it was ultimately a positive thing — I have now reached an entirely different conclusion. And I’m angry about being deceived.
I no longer believe circumcision, at least as it is practiced today, was a direct order from G-d. It certainly is not the covenant; the covenant is God’s protection and favor in return for recognizing one creator and observance of a set of laws. Circumcision is mentioned in Genesis 17 as simply a sign of this covenant; mankind has no covenant with G-d to circumcise. Circumcision is neither holy nor sacred.
Evidence is now nearly irrefutable that circumcision was not practiced by early Hebrews, but was written into the Pentateuch in much later versions (the 5th, and final one, actually) by priests of Judaism who were scrambling for several unifying practices to coalesce a fractionalized Hebrew nation in exile from Babylonia. This late insertion of circumcision into various points in the history was clumsy and very obviously at odds with other clear messages and instructions from G-d, as noted by several people here already.
It is also irrefutable that early circumcision was far less extensive and traumatic; it severed only the overhanging prepuce of the infant and could be done by the father, as is obvious from Genesis 17. Man himself turned this into a far more radical, damaging and risky surgery and created an entire event around it. If one takes Genesis 17 at face value, G-d does not tell us it is permissible to hire another to circumcise a son; the onus is on the father alone as head of household to do this. Thus, it had to be minor and safe enough for any dad to do without special training.
The bris is nothing more than a way to force parents to go through with the surgery via peer pressure, family pressure and certain condemnation if they don’t. G-d makes no provision for anyone rejoicing in this sacrifice.
I also have learned, through talking to dozens of Jewish families in many countries, that the idea that Jewish circumcision is universal today or at any time in history is nonsense. Worse than that, it is a historical fiction created to pressure families with the awful worry that they will break a precious line of tradition. Jewish circumcision is no more than 75% in many countries, and sometimes much less, including Argentina, Holland, France, Germany, Sweden, and Italy. It is most strictly followed in Israel and in English-speaking countries, though that is also changing. The fact is that circumcision has been controversial and inconsistent among Jews for centuries. In this day and age, circumcision is no more a mark of being Jewish than it is of being American or Muslim; heck, two-thirds of US Jews who circumcise neither have a bris nor have it done on day 8. It’s done before maternity discharge. So, what religious value does it have?
After careful study and, I must admit, considerable prayer, I have come to the firm conclusion that circumcision of infants is a manmade concept and abhorred by our creator. The sooner we recognize its ignominious provenance and embrace the fundamental Jewish principles of harming no other, the sooner we’ll be redeemed in G-d’s eyes.

David:
I wonder about the prevalence of anti-Semitism in those 75% countries you listed, and if the people who did not circumcise were asked why they didn’t.
I also will point out that while all of what you say may be true, I, for one, do not profess knowledge of what G-d likes or doesn’t like, outside of what I read in the document that binds us as Jews. If the Torah is not accurate, as you suggest, I would hope you are making that as much a campaign as any here are with circumcision.

“Faith cannot be regulated, and circumcision is a matter of faith for Jews”
Faith cannot and should not be regulated. Action can and should be and is. Jews and everyone else get to believe anything we want. When we start DOING things, however, our ACTIONS have to meet the test of being harmless to others. Circumcising is not harmless. It always harms, sometimes damages more deeply, and sometimes kills. That is clearly illegal action, and claiming that God requires it doesn’t protect anyone from prosecution for harming and recklessly further endangering the bodies and lives others, in this case babies. Believe anything you like. When you start cutting up other people’s bodies without their adult informed written consent, you have crossed the line into obvious criminality.

As every educated Jewish person knows, male genital mutilation was initiated not by “God”, and not during the putative life of “Abram”, but by Jewish priests during the Babylonian Captivity … as a means of establishing control over their fellow “captives”, and as a means of distinguishing them from the larger, more sophisticated and intact culture into which they had become forcibly immersed.
At the same time, these same Priests inserted Genesis 17 into the Biblical narrative to take the place of the original covenant, Genesis 15, which could no longer be honoured.
Get parents to willingly mutilate the genitals of their children and you can get them to do almost anything. Even today.

From the College of Physicians & Surgeons of British Columbia, Canada, Policy on Circumcision:
“Circumcision removes the prepuce that covers and protects the head or the
glans of the penis. The prepuce is composed of an outer skin and an inner
mucosa that is rich in specialized sensory nerve endings and erogenous
tissue. Circumcision is painful, and puts the patient at risk for
complications ranging from minor, as in mild local infections, to more
serious such as injury to the penis, meatal stenosis, urinary retention,
urinary tract infection and, rarely, even haemorrhage leading to death.”
What are people trying to achieve by cutting the business end of their child’s penis off that is worth harming the child every time for, risking deeper harm for, and risking killing the child for? The risk of killing the child isn’t large, but if the child IS killed he is not killed only a small percentage. He is killed completely; 100% dead. If it happens, WHEN it happens, as it does – see intact.wikia.com/wiki/Death_By_Circumcision – what possible goal could have been worth killing the child to try to achieve by this unnecessary risk?

I opine that to get the credit loans from banks you ought to present a firm reason. Nevertheless, one time I’ve received a college loan, just because I wanted to buy a bike.